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 Post subject: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:24 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:15 pm
Posts: 31
Location: West MN near Battle Lake
OK, got my 5th edition of the Lyman shotshell reloading handbook.

Bought what was available (AA hulls once fired) in both 12 and 20. I know from my reloading way back when that I liked Remington hulls the best. Not sure about the AA hulls.

Had some lead shot so used that to get both the 600JR and 650 adjusted where I like the crimp. Crimp depth is about .055" on the 12 gauge 650 and about .054 on the 600 in 20.

I loaded some lead I still had, #6 shot. 7/8 OZ on the 20 and 1 1/8 oz on the 12.

Now I'm wondering about parts to order so I can load steel. Looking at for the bars are made I'm guessing that I'm going to want about the same volume of shot in my shells. But I'm not sure what to order. Everything I'm reloading will be 2 3/4". No mag loads or hot loads.

I know, I know, I can buy shells.

I'll be reloading for 2 grandsons who hunt with me, my other half (I maintain that I'm the best half of this :twisted: ) 2 sons and a BIL and now finally a grand daughter. So loading 400-500 shells a year will be on the low side with hunting and practice.

Not worried about time either. I'm retired. I have time. I know you guys say that the steel kits for the MEC loaders don't work well. I have time to mess with em and to see if I can make em work. I reload rifle and pistol so I have scales and such if need be.

What I need is the correct size bars and powder bushings. One set each for the 650 in 12 gauge and for the 600 in 20.

Also a good source that I can order from. Wads, hulls and the pads to add to the steel and maybe other things as I need them. Maybe even powder. I was somewhat disappointed with Scheel's. My other option is Fleet Farm. The reloading equipment and supplies they carry vary but neither has a good selection. Scheel's in 90 miles one way and Fleet Farm 30. Scheel's is a lot better than FF. Cabela's is 140 miles. Don't matter either East Grand Forks MN or Roger MN just outside the twin cities.

SO.......any advice or guidance. I mean besides "don't do it". :lol:

Thanks

Rick




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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6333
Location: Newton Kansas
Step 1 is to decide what steel loads you want to load.
That defines component list, bar requirement, and powder bushing.

THEN you hunt to fill the list.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:43 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:15 pm
Posts: 31
Location: West MN near Battle Lake
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Step 1 is to decide what steel loads you want to load.
That defines component list, bar requirement, and powder bushing.

THEN you hunt to fill the list.



That's what I'm asking. I know I want 2 3/4". 2-4 shot. Standard loads (no magnum/hot loads). I don't know how to convert the weight differences between lead and steel. Did they measure that in weight or volume? Steel doesn't weigh as much as lead. So trying to stuff 1 1/8 oz of steel into a shell with wad and pad could be interesting. Been shooting 1 1/8 OZ in 12 and 7/8 OZ in 20 for years....in lead shot shells.

What I'd like to know is how I'm just supposed to know this stuff. That's exactly why I looked for and found the forum. So I could ask questions. Got problem with that?

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:25 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:09 pm
Posts: 167
Rick,
You need to decide the shot charge you seek to reload, then find a published recipe to your liking.

The published load you select will advise which primer, powder drop, wad and the weight of your desired load. Along with expect PSI & FPS.

BPI & Precision reloading along with others, will sell you a publication with loads you may seek.
Just be prudent if you purchased a load manual from BPI as some of their previous data was over the SAAMI spec.

...pete


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:46 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6333
Location: Newton Kansas
oldtankerII wrote:
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Step 1 is to decide what steel loads you want to load.
That defines component list, bar requirement, and powder bushing.

THEN you hunt to fill the list.



That's what I'm asking. I know I want 2 3/4". 2-4 shot. Standard loads (no magnum/hot loads). I don't know how to convert the weight differences between lead and steel. Did they measure that in weight or volume? Steel doesn't weigh as much as lead. So trying to stuff 1 1/8 oz of steel into a shell with wad and pad could be interesting. Been shooting 1 1/8 OZ in 12 and 7/8 OZ in 20 for years....in lead shot shells.

What I'd like to know is how I'm just supposed to know this stuff. That's exactly why I looked for and found the forum. So I could ask questions. Got problem with that?

Rick

An ounce is an ounce is an ounce, lead, steel, gunpowder, or feathers.

No one "weighs" anything by volume.

Weight is a measurement of weight.
Cubic Centimeters or Cubic Inches are measurements of volume.

As I, and others said, find THE STEEL SHOT RECIPE you want to load, then get THOSE components, and follow THAT recipe.

The 1-1/2 oz steel 3-1/2" 10-gauge load and 1-5/8 oz lead 2-3/4" 12-gauge loads I use have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common, except the shooter, me.

MEC makes DIFFERENT BARS for steel shot, marked as such (whoulda thunk) purely because 1ounce WEIGHT of steel shot does NOT take up the same volume as 1ounce WEIGHT of lead shot (yet both weigh 1/16 of a pound).

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:56 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:15 pm
Posts: 31
Location: West MN near Battle Lake
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
oldtankerII wrote:
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Step 1 is to decide what steel loads you want to load.
That defines component list, bar requirement, and powder bushing.

THEN you hunt to fill the list.



That's what I'm asking. I know I want 2 3/4". 2-4 shot. Standard loads (no magnum/hot loads). I don't know how to convert the weight differences between lead and steel. Did they measure that in weight or volume? Steel doesn't weigh as much as lead. So trying to stuff 1 1/8 oz of steel into a shell with wad and pad could be interesting. Been shooting 1 1/8 OZ in 12 and 7/8 OZ in 20 for years....in lead shot shells.

What I'd like to know is how I'm just supposed to know this stuff. That's exactly why I looked for and found the forum. So I could ask questions. Got problem with that?

Rick

An ounce is an ounce is an ounce, lead, steel, gunpowder, or feathers.

No one "weighs" anything by volume.

Weight is a measurement of weight.
Cubic Centimeters or Cubic Inches are measurements of volume.

As I, and others said, find THE STEEL SHOT RECIPE you want to load, then get THOSE components, and follow THAT recipe.

The 1-1/2 oz steel 3-1/2" 10-gauge load and 1-5/8 oz lead 2-3/4" 12-gauge loads I use have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common, except the shooter, me.

MEC makes DIFFERENT BARS for steel shot, marked as such (whoulda thunk) purely because 1ounce WEIGHT of steel shot does NOT take up the same volume as 1ounce WEIGHT of lead shot (yet both weigh 1/16 of a pound).



I was taught to never assume.

I was being told that I'd have to put a pad in with the shot. Then seeing 1 1/8 OZ for steel. Well thinking steel weighs less therefore will be a higher volume. At 1 1/8 with lead my 12 ga reloads are full. So I knew I was missing something and why I ask about volume. I'm not sorry that offended you.

That means that I asked a question because I don't want to blow a gun up in my face.

I know they make different bars. I went to another site where I got a straight answer instead of a snarky reply. So I got my answer no thanks to you.

I suggest that in the future if you can't be of help follow the A&B rule. It should have been an A and B conversation between my self and someone actually willing to help. So you should C your way out of it.

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:58 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:15 pm
Posts: 31
Location: West MN near Battle Lake
pjmx wrote:
Rick,
You need to decide the shot charge you seek to reload, then find a published recipe to your liking.

The published load you select will advise which primer, powder drop, wad and the weight of your desired load. Along with expect PSI & FPS.

BPI & Precision reloading along with others, will sell you a publication with loads you may seek.
Just be prudent if you purchased a load manual from BPI as some of their previous data was over the SAAMI spec.

...pete



Got it figured out and the stuff ordered.

Thanks

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6333
Location: Newton Kansas
Again, "follow the recipe".
If the recipe needs a "pad", use one, if not, then don't.
All the "pad" is is a spacer, steel does NOT require "padding"or "cushioning" to prevent deformation like lead does.

'Scuse me, but YOU asked about "weighing by volume"........

You already complained that my simple, direct 3-sentence direction was excessively obtuse, and you demanded more.

I "ASSumed" a short direct answer would be good. I ASSumed wrong.

You didn't want a clear, more detailed answer either.

Beware what you ask for, you may get it.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:54 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:15 pm
Posts: 31
Location: West MN near Battle Lake
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Again, "follow the recipe".
If the recipe needs a "pad", use one, if not, then don't.
All the "pad" is is a spacer, steel does NOT require "padding"or "cushioning" to prevent deformation like lead does.

'Scuse me, but YOU asked about "weighing by volume"........

You already complained that my simple, direct 3-sentence direction was excessively obtuse, and you demanded more.

I "ASSumed" a short direct answer would be good. I ASSumed wrong.

You didn't want a clear, more detailed answer either.

Beware what you ask for, you may get it.


Well you missed the boat. Some things are measure and sold by both volume and weight and maybe both. Grain for example. Can be sold by volume that is determined by weight or by the bushel or by the ton.

When I posted I was going by the info I had found or been given. For example it wasn't until AFTER the post that I found out that there are different wads for steel. I was looking at my wads for lead and wondering how much steel they held. So I was wondering if they were basing shot capacity as a mean factor.

I'm just now getting back into shotshell reloading. Last time I reloaded was in the 70's. So there is a lot I don't know. I also have an interest plus some experience is military tactics, antique tractors and a few other things. I would never have replied to someone asking a question as you did asking any honest question.

I didn't ask for some half baked reply from someone who has a psychological need to feel superior.

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:57 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1224
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
your umm not making any friends with that attitude, and your really not gonna get good answers either.

old stuffer could have walked you through this forward and backward and probably in his sleep.
I'm surprised he replied the last time, he has a lot more patience than I thought he did.

here is a bit of advice.
forget everything you think you know about shot shell reloading, and start over, steel hunting shells are not even close to lead shot loading.
about the only thing they have in common is they use hulls and primers.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 2543
Location: San Jose, CA
Sometimes education isn't well received.

Manuals/recipes will call out weight of payload. But if using a bar in a reloader you are using volume to approximate that weight. The bar designed for steel will be calibrated for steel's density. Size 2-4 might not work worth a damn in a reloading bar/drop tube especially in 20g. 4 has a better chance than 2.

And yes, hard non-tox shot requires different wads than similar volumes of lead.

_________________
Hornady Apex 91 shotshell loaders in 12 g and 20g for sale

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=448601


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:10 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6333
Location: Newton Kansas
fiver wrote:
your umm not making any friends with that attitude, and your really not gonna get good answers either.

old stuffer could have walked you through this forward and backward and probably in his sleep.
I'm surprised he replied the last time, he has a lot more patience than I thought he did.

here is a bit of advice.
forget everything you think you know about shot shell reloading, and start over, steel hunting shells are not even close to lead shot loading.
about the only thing they have in common is they use hulls and primers.

Oh he's done helping, but he loves a good train wreck (being a nice guy though, prefers them without death/dismemberment).
Ya'all have a dandy time.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:15 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6333
Location: Newton Kansas
Quote:
When I posted I was going by the info I had found or been given. For example it wasn't until AFTER the post that I found out that there are different wads for steel.

A little detail tidbit that the steel loading section of Lyman 5th addresses.
Trouble is a person has to read that section of the manual. Hard work.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:57 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:04 pm
Posts: 454
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Trying to meter Alliant Steel powder does not work. Running large diameter steel shot through a charge bar will soon frustrate the most patient reloader. Use the presses to size,prime, seat wads, pre crimp, and crimp. I start with a RCBS powder measure or a Lee scoop to get the powder close and weigh each charger of powder. You want maximum charge weights to get enough speed to make steel effective. Speed does kill with steel. For shot either start with a Lee scoop to get close then weigh each shot charge or count the pellets in a given weight of each size them use rifle primer trays to count the pellets for each load. It is fast once you get the hang of it. This the way most serious waterfowl shooters are loading steel. For small shot and powders like Long Shot, you can get away with charge bars. Don't waste your money on MEC steel reloaded parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:20 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 658
oldtankerII wrote:
pjmx wrote:
Rick,
You need to decide the shot charge you seek to reload, then find a published recipe to your liking.

The published load you select will advise which primer, powder drop, wad and the weight of your desired load. Along with expect PSI & FPS.

BPI & Precision reloading along with others, will sell you a publication with loads you may seek.
Just be prudent if you purchased a load manual from BPI as some of their previous data was over the SAAMI spec.

...pete



Got it figured out and the stuff ordered.

Thanks

Rick


What stuff was ordered?

Which powder are you looking at for your steel loads?

Is there a specific recipe that you've decided on?

_________________
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:24 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 658
Flyn'dutchman wrote:
Trying to meter Alliant Steel powder does not work. Running large diameter steel shot through a charge bar will soon frustrate the most patient reloader. Use the presses to size,prime, seat wads, pre crimp, and crimp. I start with a RCBS powder measure or a Lee scoop to get the powder close and weigh each charger of powder. You want maximum charge weights to get enough speed to make steel effective. Speed does kill with steel. For shot either start with a Lee scoop to get close then weigh each shot charge or count the pellets in a given weight of each size them use rifle primer trays to count the pellets for each load. It is fast once you get the hang of it. This the way most serious waterfowl shooters are loading steel. For small shot and powders like Long Shot, you can get away with charge bars. Don't waste your money on MEC steel reloaded parts.


This is solid advice.

_________________
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:08 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6333
Location: Newton Kansas
Hal4son wrote:
Flyn'dutchman wrote:
Trying to meter Alliant Steel powder does not work. Running large diameter steel shot through a charge bar will soon frustrate the most patient reloader. Use the presses to size,prime, seat wads, pre crimp, and crimp. I start with a RCBS powder measure or a Lee scoop to get the powder close and weigh each charger of powder. You want maximum charge weights to get enough speed to make steel effective. Speed does kill with steel. For shot either start with a Lee scoop to get close then weigh each shot charge or count the pellets in a given weight of each size them use rifle primer trays to count the pellets for each load. It is fast once you get the hang of it. This the way most serious waterfowl shooters are loading steel. For small shot and powders like Long Shot, you can get away with charge bars. Don't waste your money on MEC steel reloaded parts.


This is solid advice.

Yes, it is.

I have taken advice (unlike some) and am going to try using an RCBS Uniflow to throw half-charges.
According to some, it does a better metering job, and the half-charges (thrown twice to make a full charge) goes a loooong ways to evening out the charge throw variation.
Haven't had to make any yet,, so this is untested.

The Uniflow I picked up damncheap on Flea-Bay last winter and completely overhauled, is doing solid service on other projects though, so not languishing.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:54 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 658
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Hal4son wrote:
Flyn'dutchman wrote:
Trying to meter Alliant Steel powder does not work. Running large diameter steel shot through a charge bar will soon frustrate the most patient reloader. Use the presses to size,prime, seat wads, pre crimp, and crimp. I start with a RCBS powder measure or a Lee scoop to get the powder close and weigh each charger of powder. You want maximum charge weights to get enough speed to make steel effective. Speed does kill with steel. For shot either start with a Lee scoop to get close then weigh each shot charge or count the pellets in a given weight of each size them use rifle primer trays to count the pellets for each load. It is fast once you get the hang of it. This the way most serious waterfowl shooters are loading steel. For small shot and powders like Long Shot, you can get away with charge bars. Don't waste your money on MEC steel reloaded parts.


This is solid advice.

Yes, it is.

I have taken advice (unlike some) and am going to try using an RCBS Uniflow to throw half-charges.
According to some, it does a better metering job, and the half-charges (thrown twice to make a full charge) goes a loooong ways to evening out the charge throw variation.
Haven't had to make any yet,, so this is untested.

The Uniflow I picked up damncheap on Flea-Bay last winter and completely overhauled, is doing solid service on other projects though, so not languishing.


{hs# Thanks Oldstuffer. The half-charge thrown from a Uniflow advice is from myself. You won't go back to dropping ASteel from a spoon, I promise :!: :wink:

_________________
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:50 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:15 pm
Posts: 31
Location: West MN near Battle Lake
Hal4son wrote:
oldtankerII wrote:
pjmx wrote:
Rick,
You need to decide the shot charge you seek to reload, then find a published recipe to your liking.

The published load you select will advise which primer, powder drop, wad and the weight of your desired load. Along with expect PSI & FPS.

BPI & Precision reloading along with others, will sell you a publication with loads you may seek.
Just be prudent if you purchased a load manual from BPI as some of their previous data was over the SAAMI spec.

...pete


Wads for steel.


Got it figured out and the stuff ordered.

Thanks

Rick


What stuff was ordered?

Which powder are you looking at for your steel loads?

Is there a specific recipe that you've decided on?


B&P wads, TUWSBL2024 B&P 20 GA INTL SUPERSONIC TUPRW12 12 GA 2-3/4" WHITE STEEL.

The bars for both the 650 and 600. Steel kit for the 650.

Correct bushings as per the recommended recipe from the wad manufacturer. Or actually .1 under as that was as close as I can get without going over.

Ched 209 Blue Dot 22.0 TUWSBL2024 ---- 7/8 1,245 (FPS) 10,150 (Pressure) for the 20GA

Ched 209 Blue Dot 29.5 TUPRW12 ---- 1-1/8 1,257 (FPS) 11,000 (Pressure) for the 12.

I have to order via phone the steel kit from MEC. I'm going/was going to call them on Monday.

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Almost ready to go.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:27 pm 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 658
Out of the gate, those are some really slow loads for steel shot.
One other thought, being from MN you should know that Blue Dot has a reputation for being cold sensitive.

ETA- PM sent



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Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


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