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 Post subject: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:34 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:17 pm
Posts: 34
Never reloaded shotgun before. Can anyone recommend a good resource for more information? Also, anyone have any recipes for somewhat heavy hunting load in the 7/8 -15/16 oz range? Will be using 6 and 7.5 shot. I have 250 Remington Field & Clay hulls so was hoping to use those if they are decent.

Not sure where to start as far as which powder, wads or even brand of shot. I have a MEC loader.

Thank you,
Mike




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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:13 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1390
Location: northern Oklahoma
Go here online

https://www.alliantpowder.com/

or here

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

and there is always the old standby Lyman's 5th manual that you can actually hold in your hand if you had one. I don't think you can find it online.

ETA: I don't load 28 ga. But you can get an idea of the powders recommended for the various shot weights you want to launch. Hope you get more replies.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:45 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
Shotshells are a different monster than metallic cartridge loading, much "coarser", much more "really makes little-to-no-difference" things.

A half-grain powder charge change is what is needed to make a notable ballistic change in a loading.

By the same token, loading shotshells is extremely safe, safer than loading metallic cartridges. Shotgun Proof Loads are about 190% of Maximum Average Pressure (MAP), metallic is only 130% or so.

The one time anyone tested a shotgun to destruction, it took 55,000PSI to blow the chamber of an 11,500PSI MAP 12-gauge shotgun. Even at 50,000psi the chamber wouldn't bulge.

Thus, even if you do willy-nilly alterations to published loads (changing primers or wads due to availability or fit issues) you MIGHT push a load above MAP, IMO it will be very hard to even accidentally create a Proof Load. To blow a shotgun up in your fingers requires deliberate stupid effort.

All you "require" is a good press, components (hull, primer, powder, wad, shot or slugs) and load data. Everything else just adds complication.

FIRST STEP:
Buy shotshell manuals, "recipe books", buy several, download data, all you can find.
Follow that data as closely as you can, you'll be fine.
Most of these also include "How-To" using the most common shotshell presses, a couple MEC's, a P-W or 2,and so on AND entire sections on the components themselves.

The first manual, hand's down, Lyman Shotshell Handbook. Best Hull Identification Section of everyone else.
#2 is probably Ballistic Products "Advantages" for their components explanations.

PRESSURE IS NOT YOUR ENEMY:

Shotshells already operate at pressures below anything else, the use of "low-pressure" (below 8,000psi) loads for whatever reason risks poor powder burn, dirty burning, and squibs (Bloopers & Poofters (that's what they sound like)).
The risks go up as the weather gets colder and as the primers get weaker. A 7,000psi load that works in mid-summer using a Fiocci 616 primer is almost a guaranteed Blooper when you need a coat on.
I run no load under 9,000psi, most of my loads run over 10,000psi, especially cold-weather hunting loads, they cold-soak in a truck bed all day long, I have never had a Blooper.

I needed a Wad Knocker once, because of a friend's squib, not mine.

HULL CONSTRUCTION (internal) IDENTIFICATION MATTERS:

The names inked on the outside do not mean squat.
There's at least a dozen names been inked on the outside of various Federal High Power Hulls, various Federal Gold Medal Hulls, various Remington Unibody Hulls.
Fiocci, Cheddite, Rio, Multi-Metal (from Ballistic Products Inc), and recent Estates (and on and on).

Among each hull construction, all are made the same, all load identically. Color plastic doesn't matter, ribbed vs. smooth outside doesn't matter, 6 or 8 point crimp only matters to re-crimp it correctly.

HULLS:
Hulls come in 2 basic types, those with an internal taper (they are punch-formed in a mold) and those with straight sides (a tube, with a basewad inserted,and a head crimped on to hold it together). Basewad heights vary from mfr. to mfr, thus internal volume varies, if the inside depth (basewad height) is the same, construction is the same, load data is the same (the various Euro hulls, Multi-Metal hulls, the newer plastic-based Estates)(the Federal high Power paper basewad, the Estate paper basewad), and so on.

Remington Unibody and the old Winchester AA Compression Formed (CF) are a tapered hull, the Winchester AA High Strength (HS) is a straight-wall hull that uses a special basewad to turn it into a tapered hull inside.

PRESS:
For the money, flexibility, and aggravation,, for shotshells use ANYONE'S tool but the Lee Load-All series. They are extremely basic and for anything but extreme basics, they are out of their ability. For a budget beginner,, pick up a MEC 600Jr/700 Versamec (same thing with 3 minor upgrade tweaks that got incorporated in the 600 after a few years), or Sizemaster/Steelmaster (same thing but tweaked for larger steel shot) from Flea-Bay, Craigslist, estate sale, or someplace, even if a few small parts are missing.

ALL parts are available from MEC, and are not expensive. The most "lost" parts are the primer catch pan, the primer seating assy, and bottles.

I load exclusively on MEC machines, 3 single stages and one progressive. There are other shotshell loaders, every one more expensive (except the Lees), none load "better" shells.

I do not ever advise a new loader to buy a progressive first, too much going on while trying to learn what is going on.

A single stage MEC can load 75-100 shells an hour (100 is humping it hard).

I am not a supporter of the MEC 650 progressive, it does not resize the metal heads, which means you have to do that somehow else, a MEC Super Sizer for instance. Now you need 2 tools instead of one. 

The only MEC progressives I support are the Manual Indexing Grabber/Hustler series and the Auto-Indexing 9000 series.
With shotshells Stack Height requirements, it is much less dangerous to have a manual-index progressive shotshell press. The progressives pretty much will not let you 2-stroke a shell because you are trying to shove a wad and the shot drop tube down into a shell full of shot already. The MEC Grabber/Hustler and 9000  will load just 1 hull at a time though if you only feed them 1 hull at a time. Shot and powder drops are hull-triggered when things are adjusted properly (and they aren't hard to adjust properly).

"Stack Height" is a huge deal at closing shotshell hulls, the components need to FIT, under-full and the crimps dish in, over-full and they will pop out.
Not every tested recipe will fit properly in your hulls, I have seen this,, it's somewhat rare, but it happens. I don't know why.
Most Stack Height issues relate to the wrong wad. With today's possible wad selection (immense), this is why I advise get more manuals and more data BEFORE YOU BUY COMPONENTS.

There are 3 "correct" ways to fix stack height issues In My Opinion:

Different powder (something more dense if it is too tall, something fluffier if it is too short)

Change the shot payload (add or subtract a few pellets until it fits right)

Change the wad.

Then there's the people who add breakfast cereal to fix a short stack height, like cheerios. I can see doing this to "use up" a poorly-fitting wad, for a bag or so (250 wads), but some people do this for YEARS, for tens of thousands of shells, deliberately.

WADS:
Wads like hulls come in designs for straight and tapered hulls. The tapered wads have a slightly smaller diameter gas seal to seat down inside the hull taper.
A straight wall wad CAN stop stuck on the hull sides above the powder, A Bad Thing (Bloopers).

A tapered wad CAN allow fine-grained powder to slip past it in a straight wall hull, not usually a problem with bigger flake powders, but again, A Bad Thing (Bloopers).

There ARE CASES where cross-mixing hull types and wad types works fine but most of the time, if you use the right wad in the type hull it is designed for, you are in a better place.

As I said, fluffy flake powders don't migrate as badly as fine-grained sphericals do. A large pile of slow powder for a hunting load will possibly fill the hull taper so high that a straight wall wad fits fine atop the powder. Load Data manuals, let them guide you.

PRIMERS:
European #209 primers are a couple thousandths larger in diameter than American #209 primers, you CAN jam Euro 209's into American hulls.
Once you go Euro, there is no going back to American 209's, they just fall out.

SCALE:
With MEC bars, bushings, and bushing charts you CAN load safely without a scale. The bushings will likely throw less powder (slightly) than the chart says, this is not unsafe unless it causes bloopers/poofters (squibs).

It is not really "optimal" either though.

God only knows how many 10's of thousands of 12-ga. traploads I constructed (and shot) on a MEC 310 with a "0" bar, Red Dot powder, Winchester AA12 (white) wads, 7 1/2 shot, and put in a Winchester Compression Formed hull. Not a scale in sight.

If you use an Adjustable Charge Bar (I do), a scale is MANDATORY, their "chart" is garbage.

Shot Drop Bars ARE "Calibrated" by the mfr, BUT, they may not be calibrated to the shot you use. This isn't the bar's fault.

Most bars are calibrated to # 7 1/2 or 8 shot, pure lead.

"Skeet" bars are usually calibrated to #9 shot.

If you use High Antimony shot, it will drop "light", you get the same number of 7 1/2 pellets, but they weight less.
If you use #5 or 6 shot, it will drop light, because the balls are bigger, more air space.

If you change from chilled shot (Low Antimony) to magnum shot (High Antimony) then adjust the shot drop because "it's light", you may cause yourself Stack Height Issues.

MISC. OTHER STUFF:

Don't buy s MEC Shell Checker,, it's a waste of money. Like a Case Gauge For Shotshells.

Size your metal heads (if on an adjustable collet machine) to .005" or so smaller than minumum chamber size, do not chase minimum cartidge size. You just overstress collets and wear/crack them early. Use them "enough" not "too much", they run forever.

On collets,,,,, Super Web Grease.

You won't live long enough to wear out a MEC Power Ring Sizer.

I store my reloads in factory boxes, thus I like the MEC E-Z-Pack shell stackers, I've sure filled a lot of boxes before I ever bought one. 

MTM Case Guard box labels.

Most of my other "custom tools", for cutting crimps off to make roll-crimp hulls, roll crimpers, all this stuff no noob needs but I use on occasions (like for Slugs), I get from Ballistic Products.

Wad Knocker:
A chunk of Brass (it's heavy) that you can drop down the barrel to push a stuck wad back out the breech.
I don't own one, I've never had a wad stick from a squib.

If you have enough Bloopers where you need a Wad Knocker more than once, you need to rethink your load to move away from what caused the blooper.

The one time I needed one to help a friend, in the middle of a CRP field a mile from Nowhere, it's a good thing I carry a .45.

A 9mm round just ain't heavy enough to pass as a Wad Knocker LOL.

You should be able to acquire Hulls, a MEC press, manual, appropriate components (in that order), set it up, start working with it, and be able to load shells within an hour or so of beginning.

It isn't hard.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:56 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 11295
Location: Kansas
Very well stated. I agree with all of it!

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:27 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
Posts: 1390
Location: northern Oklahoma
oldstuffer,

I sure hope you had that reply saved back as a pdf file somewhere. The OP should send you a thank you for the extended effort of that explanation if that was all entered in tonight.

That, or you just didn't have anything else to do tonight. :wink: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:54 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5773
You know what I thought when I read this? "This should answer 99.9% of the newbie questions on this Forum." We can close down now. (J/K!)


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:20 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 7174
Location: Oregon
Here is another link to reloading.
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 3&t=498334
If you read and understand both of these threads, you are off to a good start.

_________________
Mark (oregunner) See the bird, shoot the bird!


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:10 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3690
Location: UK, England, Britain
Good luck. Buy lyman5th and read it.
Find a manufacturers recipe.
Buy exact components.
Reload exact components.
Bang em off


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:33 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 10876
Location: Phoenixville PA
For general target shooting, get a MEC reloader. For a newbe reloader, I would recommend a single stage machine.

1. Winchester AA-HS is the best hull for 28 gauge reloading, lasting for 10 decent reloads on average.

2. The Claybuster CB 5034-28HS is the correct wad for this hull. (3/4 oz. loads)

3. Favorite modern powders are Hodgdon's Longshot and Alliant's 20/28.

4. Use size 8 or 8 1/2 shot for sporting clays and 9s for skeet.

5. For hunting, use appropriate shot sizes for the game you are hunting.

6. I use recipes that call for Winchester 209 primers or Federal 209A primers - these both work well, and I don't get into "loose primers" that can result from intermixing foreign-made primers. But they DO use different recipes, as the Federal is a hotter primer.

And by buying powder in 8 lb. jugs and primers by the thousand, from a local supplier, you will save substantial money. My reloads average a couple of cents over $4.00 per box.

Have fun, and STAY SAFE!

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BobK


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:05 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 14
I agree with BobK's post with a couple of exceptions. I use Hogdon Universal powder because it is the cleanest burning I can find. I use Cheddite primers, made in France, because they are cheaper and the new ones are exactly the same size and American 209s.

I load about 20k rounds for skeet and hunting per year, so I by components in bulk and I can load 28 ga for about $340 per box.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:42 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
Posts: 1647
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
BobK wrote:
For general target shooting, get a MEC reloader. For a newbe reloader, I would recommend a single stage machine.


YES, and I would add buy the SizeMaster. It is far better then the 600jr. because it has a collet resizer and comes with a primer feeder.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:45 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:17 pm
Posts: 34
Thank everyone I really appreciate the info. Been reloading rifle for years but was a little intimidated with the shotshells. Sounds like it isn’t too bad.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 263
Location: Trinidad, CO
bump


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
oldtechshooter wrote:
oldstuffer,

I sure hope you had that reply saved back as a pdf file somewhere. The OP should send you a thank you for the extended effort of that explanation if that was all entered in tonight.

That, or you just didn't have anything else to do tonight. :wink: :wink:

I have several Saved .txt files like that, others are Noob Advice for metallic loading, metallic sizing die setting, metallic seating/crimping die setting, records of my extensive research into the differences (and lack thereof) between the 2 US Military NATO rifle rounds (the 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm) and their civilian counterparts (.308 Winchester and .223 Remington) because the mis-understanding about those is LEGION, and a 'features comparison' of CURRENT (and recent) progressive reloading presses (which just updated due to a change in the Dillon Line), reference websites for metallic cartridge pressure signs, and so on.

I have answered those questions so many times over the decades that I finally put my thoughts all together in a coherent manner and saved them for Future Reference in conversations on forums similar to this one.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:53 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
mikestaten wrote:
Thank everyone I really appreciate the info. Been reloading rifle for years but was a little intimidated with the shotshells. Sounds like it isn’t too bad.

The worst thing about shotshell loading, TODAY, is the VAST list of choices you have now in components (especially wads), which is why IMO the SMARTEST advice ANYONE can give to someone considering starting out is to BUY BOOKS FIRST, read the how-to's, and THEN, decide on loads and components BEFORE BUYING COMPONENTS.

When I started loading shotshells in the early 1980's, I had 4 hull choices, the Winchester CF, the Remington Unibody (which were very similar internally), and TWO Federals (Gold Medal and High Power(paper basewad)), the ACTIV came into existence around that time.

My WAD options were Winchester, Federal, and Remington.

My gunpowder choices were Hercules (almost completely) and Winchester (a few).

Shotshell loading was pretty simple then.

Today, due solely to the complication created by added choices, I rate shotshell loading as more complicated than metallic.
Once you get past those choices, it is much easier and more forgiving.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:19 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:14 pm
Posts: 415
1. I am very happy with the book recipe from Alliant for 20/28, Win 209, Win AAHS, CB wad, and ¾ of shot.

2. For hunting loads I would look into the Hodgdon's Longshot Recipies

3. Would stay away from BPI published loads unless you are willing to send a couple out for confirmation testing from Precision Reloading or another reputable outfit. Same thing goes for any recipe not currently up to date and available from a major powder manufacturer. (https://www.precisionreloading.com/view ... shot_proof)

4. 28ga is the sweet spot of reloading... huge savings compared to factory and much easier to load vs .410.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:26 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:37 pm
Posts: 1034
Location: colorado
If you want great, but expensive hunting loads, look up hawglips. He imports Tss and has some solid 28ga loads.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:04 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:04 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Denver, CO
Wow-very impressed with the lengthy advice post by OldStuffer. Very solid advice and I'm glad you had it saved from previously as that would be a lot of typing. I wish I could have read something like that when I started reloading 35 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:31 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 4:41 pm
Posts: 563
The 28 gauge is a great choice. It's the sports car of shotguns. I think that most users of it would agree with the following:

1. Use ONLY Winchester AA hulls. But don't buy hulls. Buy two flats of loaded shells and reload them about 10 times each.

2. I load only 3/4 ounce loads for clay targets. Since I use fewer shells for hunting, I usually use Winchester factory loads, which have 1.0 ounce of shot.

3. Use ONLY 20/28 powder or Universal.

4. Use Claybuster wads. The right version (scine Woinchester stupdly modified their AA hulls a few yeara ago) is printed on the package.

The 28 is surprisingly deadly on upland game, including pheasants. For Skeet I see almost no difference in scores between a 28 and a 12.


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 Post subject: New to shotgun reloading, looking to load 28 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:11 am 
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Posts: 11295
Location: Kansas
I would not agree to only 20/28 or universal powders. There are others that are just as good if not better. Same goes for the wads



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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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