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 Post subject: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:50 pm
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I am interested in shortening my sizing dies on a PW 800B 12 ga reloader. I do not have a lathe, and was wondering if the dies could be ground down using a belt sander or grinding wheel? I am trying to solve the Win AA HS "hole in the middle" problem with the 800B. Please do not suggest changing hulls (I would love to load exclusively Rem Premier or some other hull, but i have a virtually unlimited supply of AA HS hulls, and NO PREMIERS).

If the grinding solution is not good, can anyone suggest somewhere i can send the dies to and have them cut down?




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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:07 am 
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shawkins wrote:
If the grinding solution is not good, can anyone suggest somewhere i can send the dies to and have them cut down?



A local machine / tool and die shop. A guy at your GC with a lathe.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am 
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You can probably use 900 Series sizers. They only size the the brass on the hull and leave most of the plastic part exposed.


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:03 pm 
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will that not require the use of the newer crimper?


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 pm 
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Buy 800+ sizers from PW - a bit pricey perhaps.

PW may machine them for you if you ask. Their website is http://www.reloaders.com

I know Dano523 on this website has done them. I don't know what he would charge you, but you could look him up and send him a private message.

As suggested above, any machine shop could do it, or someone at the gun club with a lathe.

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:34 pm 
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I can do them if they are not hardened, but I have to know exactly how much you want removed.
Free labor, you pay shipping both ways.

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:27 pm 
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bet they'd fit in a 8$ flat rate box.


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:38 pm 
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
Curly N wrote:
I can do them if they are not hardened, but I have to know exactly how much you want removed.
Free labor, you pay shipping both ways.


Now, that is an incredibly generous offer! You de man, Curly!


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 576
I shortened one PW 12 G die To 2 1/2 inch in my lathe , tough job they are very hard. One I cut down ate up carbide inserts fast and still needed Final trimming with a tool post mounted Dremel tool. Grind on on the lathe means lengthy clean up. Abrasive residue hard on the machine.

It’s really a job for a precision surface grinder . Machine shop equipped with one job should be fast, all same set up.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:32 pm 
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If you shorten up the dies to the 800c, 800+, 900, 2000 length you will have to replace the crimp station to the taper crimp station, and change the last knockout station to the spring loaded knockout station. Go to the Ponsness website and look up the taper crimp conversion kit.

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:49 am 
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For B sizers to crimp 12 HS hulls without a center hold in the crimp, sizers needs to be shortened to 2.255". And yes, the sizers are hardened, but a T-321 C7 insert cuts through the hardened sizers like hot butter. Just use a live end on the mouth of the sizer to hold it steady during the initial cut, so you don't end up with any chatter to the cut. Also, set the cutter angle up so you have the correct taper angle on the top of sizer to start with, and cut the sizers .010" longer than needed on the first cut, then come back with a flush face cut for the remaining .010" to bring the sizers to length. Also, before you cut the sizer out of the lathe, protect the beds and use 400 wet/dry sand paper to lightly chamfer the end of ID to break any sharp edges (allows the hulls to be ejected without binding up on the ID top edge).

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But keep in mind that the B tool set is always going to crimp to the length of the sizer, so if you run STS hulls in sizers, going to end up with a swirl to the crimp.

My thoughts, if you are going to shorten the sizes, may as well shorten them to C sizers, and upgrade the B tool kit to a C instead. The needed parts to turn a B into a C tool kit is only around $80, and you do end up with taper crimping in the end (comes in handy if you are going to run the reloads through an automatic). I end up turning the solid knock out post to accept the spring loaded cup parts, and the only item left is swap out the non taper crimper to taper crimper for the C upgrade (can not mod the none taper crimper to turn it into a taper crimper, since the none taper cup it too wide to start with).

None taper crimper on the left, and taper crimper on the right.
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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:37 am 
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For clarification - taper crimp sizers (800C, 800+, 900, Platinum 2000, etc) are 2.060" and you must use the taper crimp die and the taper crimp knockout setup.

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 576
Thanks for the tip, will order some of those inserts to keep on hand. No real need for me to shorten any more PW dies. Have gone to the taper crimp dies for my two 375s & retired the old 600.

Taper crimp is a much better system even for O/U & SXS guns. Solves the 2 1/2 inch short shell problem. Able to sell my short kit MEC 600 Jrs. Side note PW has a new taper crimp solution for 10 G. Has to be altered for 2 7/8 10, easy to do.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:26 pm 
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[quote="Dano523"]

My thoughts, if you are going to shorten the sizes, may as well shorten them to C sizers, and upgrade the B tool kit to a C instead. The needed parts to turn a B into a C tool kit is only around $80, and you do end up with taper crimping in the end (comes in handy if you are going to run the reloads through an automatic). I end up turning the solid knock out post to accept the spring loaded cup parts, and the only item left is swap out the non taper crimper to taper crimper for the C upgrade (can not mod the none taper crimper to turn it into a taper crimper, since the none taper cup it too wide

Dano523,

I have read many of your posts concerning this exact topic. I am currently shooting bt-99 and citori guns (no simi-autos) and not really interested in the taper crimp upgrade. However, for $80 (rather than the $350 pricetag of the upgrade kit) i may go that route. But if i was to go that route, I would prefer to have someone who knows what they are doing, rather than some random machine shop, perform the modifications. To that end, what would you charge me to make these modifications? And/or simply cut the dies down to 2.255" (which will solve my problem adequately for the time being, and for the foreseeable future). If you are not interested, i completely understand, and your knowledge is greatly appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:00 pm 
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Shawkins, Between work trying to kill me with 14hr days, and any free time I have not at work being used to rebuild my Harley this winter to get it ready for summer riding, Would be months before I could get around to mod'g for you.

IIRQ, it's only around $20 to send a set of dies insured and back UPS, and would take Curly up on his offer to shorten the dies for you now since guessing that he does have some free time.


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:27 am 
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Dano523 wrote:
Shawkins, Between work trying to kill me with 14hr days, and any free time I have not at work being used to rebuild my Harley this winter to get it ready for summer riding, Would be months before I could get around to mod'g for you.

IIRQ, it's only around $20 to send a set of dies insured and back UPS, and would take Curly up on his offer to shorten the dies for you now since guessing that he does have some free time.


Since I only have HSS tooling and no Carbide and am too cheap to buy it to do a free job. My offer is off the table.

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:50 pm
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Thanks to all of you for your advice and help (and offer for free lathe work, even if it was recended) I am meeting with a friend tomorrow evening whom i believe can handle the necessary modification of the dies.

I am just going to shorten the dies to 2.255" as suggested by Dano, and will try that. if the result is not satisfactory, i will likely purchase the taper crimp conversion kit ($215 not the $350 i thought.)

I will let you know what the result of the modification is. Thanks again for all of the help.


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:36 pm 
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shawkins wrote:
Thanks to all of you for your advice and help (and offer for free lathe work, even if it was recended) I am meeting with a friend tomorrow evening whom i believe can handle the necessary modification of the dies.

I am just going to shorten the dies to 2.255" as suggested by Dano, and will try that. if the result is not satisfactory, i will likely purchase the taper crimp conversion kit ($215 not the $350 i thought.)

I will let you know what the result of the modification is. Thanks again for all of the help.

The cost of buying the carbide cutters is prohibitive for me to do that work for you. If I had the necessary stuff on hand, I would have done it no problem.

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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:53 am 
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Curlys right, do that job means the right tool holders and inserts. Trim takes one, face it off another. Could cost hundred bucks. Brazed tip Carbide tooling from China you see on line not up to the job. I used serveral cheap carbide tool bits up trimming one Die.

Send it out to a professional shop not cheap either. When I need to do something over my lathe or mills capacity local shops rate is 125 bucks per hour. He gives me a little break if the set up is simple. Complicated he won’t do for individuals.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: PW 800B Sizing Dies
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Just got handed a 800B for free that I spent Sunday (snowing so nothing else to do) going threw to clean up and covert it over to a C.

Again, the secret to trimming the sizers is back up the cut end of the sizer with a live end in the tail stock.

So bottom of sizer in the chuck, live end on the other side, set the Carbide cutter to the angle you want the angle on the shoulder, and make your cut just short of all the way through that will leave the end of the sizer with a ridge bur, and about .010 longer then needed to that end of taper end of cut. Since you have the lathe already set up to just make plunge cuts on the cross slide, you just go through the dies this first step to make the side taper cuts for the set of sizers.

Now on the second pass of the sizers threw the lathe, kick the cutter to about an 20* inward angle, set the cross slide .040" to the right, and then feed the cross slide to tip inside the sizer, set the cross slide to 0 inside the sizer and make that last facing cut outward from the inside of the sizer to the outside of the sizer (live end not needed for this cut, but use it as you are tightening the chuck to make sure that the sizer square and tight against the face of the check for repeats ).

From here while you still have that sizer in the lathe spinning, cover the cross bed with a towel, break out a file for the ID edge to break any burs there, hit the end face to start of side angle to soften that edge, as well as the end angle to flat of sizer OD with the file. Now with some 400 wet dry sand paper, go back and gleam the edges, and add in that touch of chamfer to the ID of size.
Note, don't go buck wild with the file, but since you will using sand paper on your finger to do final polishing and the light ID chamber, make dam sure you don't leave a sharp bur to cut you when you go in with the sand paper after the file.

Next, kick the cross slide back over to the right .040, pull the Sizer, use the live end/tail stock to tighten the next sizer in the lathe, and off you go again for the next sizer final step.

Hence done this way and you have the first sizer cut to plus .010" plus bur and the Z axis on the cross slide lock in place, it only takes about 4 mins to trim a full set of sizers since you just doing repeat cuts on each steps .

As for carbide cutters ( I just use T-321's), C5 will do the cuts, but you will wear out a tip on a set of sizers. C6 tip will last you around three sets of sizers. C-7 cutter tip will do boxes of sizers before you need to spin the dulled tip instead. If you want to go faster on the cuts, then ceramic cutter is the ticket, but your dealing with glowing red hot ribbon chips coming off the cutter (all all the smoke when they hit the flood oil) instead.

Also, let the cutter do the cuts, instead of putting a ton of pressure on the tip instead. The swarf you want will be fine grind type swarf off the cutter, and not trying to get ribbon chips off the sizers . Also, since the first pass is going to be a thicker cut, make sure to back up the sizer with the live end for this cut. You start to get any chatter, and you can kiss the tip good-by on the carbide cutter.




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