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 Post subject: International loads
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:25 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 183
I was looking at the International loads on the Alliant website and every load for the 4 hulls they have listed has a 1345 fps velocity, is there a reason for this in International shooting??




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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:13 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 21574
Yep, the targets are 50% harder physically and 50% faster - you need the speed to break the target.

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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:29 am 
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Plus you only have 24 grams of shot so the shot really has to do its job.


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:11 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Western Tampa, FL
oneounceload wrote:
Yep, the targets are 50% harder physically and 50% faster - you need the speed to break the target.


Sorry, because I don't normally disagree with anything oneounceload says, but I don't think it is because that speed is needed to break the International targets. Those targets are a tiny bit smaller in that the dome height is less, and they are made harder to withstand the forces of the trap's arm launching them at greater speed, but IMO that is not why the shells are faster.

I think the shells are made at faster velocities because a) the makers can achieve more consistent powder burns/ballistics with those light weight shot charges at higher velocities regardless of weather conditions. b) Secondly, I believe that Int. shooters are now conditioned to believe what oneounceload said, i.e. that the speed is necessary for the tougher Int. targets. After all, you don't see anyone making Int. loads traveling at more sedate speeds than 1,325 fps.

I have proven to myself and a few others repeatedly, that 7.5 size shot at 1,060 fps will decisively break any International Trap target that is pointed properly. Decisively! That even includes those broken by the much longer second shot, when I was lucky enough to make it count. Before they stopped making them, I used to shoot practice rounds with the Herters Low Recoil loads at that velocity. It was not a legal load because they were 1 oz. but for practice it didn't matter.

I also used those same shells to break FITASC targets at those extended distances. A very slight difference in leads detected was all the difference I experienced.


Last edited by oyeme on Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:39 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:21 pm
Posts: 578
Am no expert but I agree with Crown Grade consistent powder burn is the reason. Have played with light shot loads & most difficult thing is to get complete consistent powder burn. Examine ballistic tables shot starting fast, 1300 FPS or so slows at distance to velocity very close to 1180 launched shot. Only real way to hit harder is more pellet weight on target. Size limited, shot weight limited, tight chokes make for hard hits.

Bass


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:50 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 183
Thanks for all the info guys, even there 28 gram(1-oz.) loads are all at 1345 fps, will the increased speed help the average shooter ???


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:40 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Western Tampa, FL
If you are speaking of improvement on International targets there is only one thing that will really help and it is not the speed of the shells. It's practice and lots of it. I was able to watch Dania Vizzi practice in preparation for upcoming International Skeet tournaments. She would have a practice session consisting of a flat of shells (10 boxes) about 5 times per week! Can you do that? I cannot!

That means being focused and lifting an 8 lb. Perazzi 250 times from the Int. Sk, starting position in a space of about 3-4 hours. She is not a large woman at all and weighs maybe 115 lbs. She is an incredible talent bolstered by mountains of spent hulls practicing!

Once you get your scores consistently in the 20s a qualified coach can help fine tune some of your technique. Dania shot whatever ammo was supplied to her and did not get overly involved in the technical aspects of the ammo or gun. They would supply her with a gun fitted to her dimensions. Good luck and IMO both International games are a great deal of fun.


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:43 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 183
Oyeme, Thanks again for all the info, at my age I'm not sure I could lift a flat of shells 5 times a week, let alone shoot 5 flats. My question is directed at the Trap & Skeet shooters on this side of the pond. You must have been (still are) a great shooter!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:52 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Western Tampa, FL
al1969brown wrote:
Oyeme, You must have been (still are) a great shooter!!!!


Sadly, never ever was a great shooter! :oops: :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:14 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:18 pm
Posts: 542
I agree that you can break International targets hard with slower shells, and that speed really doesn't matter too much. I do think it has something to do with consistent clean burn. I have seen where higher antimony shells seemed to hit harder, but that's only with visual observations, so it could have been prejudiced.

There is something to be said about lower recoil improving scores (at the end of a match specifically), but the International shells have such little recoil I don't think that the speed would matter. It's probably about confidence, too. I don't think I've ever seen any 24g load at under 1300 fps.

Wonder if the speed would have any affect on pattern?

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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:51 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:05 pm
Posts: 92
pintailwizard wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen any 24g load at under 1300 fps.

Wonder if the speed would have any affect on pattern?


When Winchester were making 24g loads in Australia they used a blue AA wad with a dome in the base if the wad. Somewhat like the 12Ga. 3/4 oz claybuster wad.

It was said to serve two functions;
1, take up room that would have been occupied by shot had they been 28g loads.
2, An aid to spreading the shot slightly as the original loads patterned very tightly if a flat based wad was used.
The case used was the compression formed AA and the loads offered had muzzle velocities of 1325 and 1350 fps.
The wads were offered in bags of 500 for reloaders. I still have some that have become brittle with age.


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:01 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:32 am
Posts: 23
Location: NSW, Australia
As TwoFourThree said, these wads were the first 24-7/8oz wad we saw here down under. The loads also included a 1300 fps 24g load. I found this ad...



Also, Oyeme, there as quite a few ISSF loads at around 1325. Winchester AA 24g load is 1325, just FYI {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:02 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2020
Location: Attica, Mi
Will velocity mean more energy the shot will have on the bird, or is energy just the shot size ? Maybe one of you guys who like to mess around with math could say how much difference and if it would make a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:13 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Western Tampa, FL
ooze: This is what I said, "After all, you don't see anyone making Int. loads traveling at more sedate speeds than 1,325 fps."

By sedate, I meant in the sense of the more calm, or traditional velocities. I should have said at a slower speed than 1325 fps. They may exist but are not commonly available or at least I have never encountered them. If I did, I would use them.

Enjoy the International games they are a wonderful and unique challenge!


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:13 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:32 am
Posts: 23
Location: NSW, Australia
Yeah ok, slower than 1325. Gotcha.

Eley make a shell called "Amber Pink" which is a 24 gram 1200 fps shell. It may not have made it to the US though....

but I agree, there are not a whole lot of this type of factory shell around.

EDIT - I have some of the above Eley shells at home, but it looks like they have bumped up the speed.


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:52 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Posts: 2536
Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
Will they let you shoot a 20 gauge in International trap and skeet? If there's a problem with getting consistent pressures in a 12 gauge when only shooting 24 grams of shot, then shooting 24 grams out of a 20 gauge may be the answer unless, of course, that disqualifies you.

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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:59 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Western Tampa, FL
No restriction for 20 gauge. Here is the official rule on that.

9.4.2.1 Types of Shotguns
All types of smoothbore shotguns, including semi-automatics, but excluding
pump action shotguns, may be used, provided their caliber does not exceed 12
gauge. Shotguns smaller than 12 gauge may be used. Shotguns must not have
a camouflage finish.


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4325
Location: Annapolis, MD
i don't shoot International but just curious why the exclusion for pumps.

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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:05 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Nebs wrote:
i don't shoot International but just curious why the exclusion for pumps.


I am not sure but unless the user was as adept as Rudy Etchen with a pump, it would be a pretty useless action type for these games.


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 Post subject: Re: International loads
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:39 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:51 pm
Posts: 312
Location: top bit of Victoria Australia
I imagine it is a result of the 1996 gun laws in Australia where pump and semi auto shotguns were banned after the Port Arthur shootings
semi autos are now allowed for competition shooting under some circumstances usually for recoil reduction after a shoulder injury pump actions do not fit this criteria
as for 7/8oz loads Kemen did make a 1200fps cartridge




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