ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:10 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:41 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Trinidad, CO
Does anyone know how much energy is required for the firing pin to strike the primer face of 209/209a and have reliable ignition? Any suggestions on where to find this info? Efforts at finding the experts at Winchester are underway.

Thanks in advance.

s/f Steve




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:20 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 4:41 pm
Posts: 532
Why do you ask?

Every shotgun I ever owned ignites them just fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:27 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Trinidad, CO
Well, a friend asked, and he is not at liberty to tell me why his business is interested. His word is good enough for me. I'm sure it is important. He shared with me the necessary or likely testing criteria but I didn't see the need to share as of yet. Not secret or confidential or the like but excess bandwidth.

s/f Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:43 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5757
I'm not sure there's a quantifiable answer for that. The reason? A given force distributed over a large, dull firing pin might not cause ignition, but that exact same force given to a small, sharp, piercing pin might.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:49 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 949
I'd look around the wolf spring website and see what a replacement spring comes in at.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:58 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Location: Central CT
The links below are to companies that make universal receivers for ballistics labs. They have to know how energetic their firing mechanisms are.

http://zpvproizvodnja.com/ballistic-tes ... receivers/


http://www.drello.com/english/ballistic ... ontest.php


https://www.wisemanballistics.com/product/

Or you could try a firearms manufacturer, but chances of getting a customer service person that would know that info, is slim to none.

Possibly one of the better gunsmiths might know.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:11 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Newton Kansas
Yes, the number is quantifiable, I have seen such written in specifications for military arms.

I don't have those specs at hand.

Google would help a lot, but only if used.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:26 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Trinidad, CO
A number of us are looking. If anything turns up interesting, I'll be sure to share.

s/f Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:58 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 25421
Location: Plainfield, IL
Gunsite Guy wrote:
Does anyone know how much energy is required for the firing pin to strike the primer face of 209/209a and have reliable ignition? Any suggestions on where to find this info? Efforts at finding the experts at Winchester are underway.

Thanks in advance.

s/f Steve


See: http://www.davidtubb.com/index.php?down ... nload/free

There is no energy number alone.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:03 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:22 am
Posts: 8452
Location: Rochester, NY
There are so many variables that there will be no specific number, not possible.

Different primer face materials and thicknesses alone will make a huge difference, and is part of the reason a gun will work perfectly fine with one kind of primer, but won't reliably shoot another. The firing pin diameter, profile, and angle are additional factors, as is the hammer fall distance, speed, and force.

Hell, each manufacturer themselves make/use multiple different types of primers, Winchester alone has at least 4 variants.

_________________
S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:46 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 5535
Gunsite Guy wrote:
Does anyone know how much energy is required for the firing pin to strike the primer face of 209/209a and have reliable ignition?


And if you learn this information, what will you do differently?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:23 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Location: Central CT
deleted

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.


Last edited by dogchaser37 on Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:43 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 5535
There are some that believe round-faced primers, as apposed to flat-faced primers like the WW-209, are more reliable in the bottom barrel of Brownings.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:49 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Trinidad, CO
Gentlemen,

This has nothing to do with my shotguns or my reloads. It has nothing to do with primer variables, just 209 and 209a. Think of it as an interest in something more than press the trigger and something go bang. To me it is all esoteric. I find it interesting and fun. I think it is more about how do you measure something like this. They, my friends, are suggesting to me that you would take a metal ball, hold it by an electromagnet and upon release the falling weight and strike a firing pin and will or will not ignite the primer. What weight would it require and what distance/height?

All of this will not help me break one single target, kill one more bird, or thrill the locals. It is just fun.

s/f Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:57 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4325
Location: Annapolis, MD
There probably is an answer to your question, but it will vary depending on the brand of primer. Each brand uses different materials to make their primers and the answer to you question will depend on the metal used on the strike face of each brand.

_________________
Ceteris paribus, of course.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:52 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4303
I have no idea what the OP is looking for but this can be attacked from a different direction and find out what the gun manufacturers think the amount of kinetic energy needed to fire a primer.

You can do this by measuring the amount of energy stored in the hammer spring using the formula:

E = ½kx²

where E = stored kinetic energy
k = spring constant (obtain from spring or gun manufacturer)
x = spring displacement (measure difference in length between at rest and full cock)

There are some frictional losses, so the actual energy will be less than that stored in the spring initially, but this is basically what the manufacturers think it takes to reliably set off a primer.

Don't be surprised if it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:00 am
Posts: 27
Gunsite Guy wrote:
Does anyone know how much energy is required for the firing pin to strike the primer face of 209/209a and have reliable ignition?


Quote:
... my friends, are suggesting to me that you would take a metal ball, hold it by an electromagnet and upon release the falling weight and strike a firing pin and will or will not ignite the primer.

I assume you're seeking an answer expressed in joules, and it seems to me that you're going about finding that answer the right way.

Since a sufficiently small metal ball will probably reach terminal velocity pretty quickly, I'd suspend a "firing pin" of known mass from an increasing height above a selection of primers. Constrain its fall within a tube oriented as vertically as practicable. Increase its mass until you get ignition. Repeat until you establish a correlation.

KE = 1/2 m*v^2 (by definition)

On Earth where g = 9.8 m/s^2, you can convert this to height. The time it takes to fall from that height is the square root of 2*g*height, so

KE = mass* g* height

The height needs to be reasonable so it'll be easier to vary the mass. I have to ignore air friction but its effect is likely to be negligible if the mass is sufficiently large. That's why a small steel ball probably won't work. Also construct the "constraining tube" from some perforated material so you trap negligible air between the mass and whatever's around it.

The shape of whatever strikes the primer may or may not have an effect. I managed to achieve ignition striking a primer with a completely flat surface. It was not intentional :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:15 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Trinidad, CO
You guys are awesome! I can hardly keep up with all the info being provided. This is truly one of those instances where the more the better. The knowledge on this site is way beyond me...but I will keep trying.

Thanks so very much.

s/f Steve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:13 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 949
a pin shaped striker will be needed.
I think that was mentioned above.

you could go the other way around and tape/glue the ball to the primer and drop an empty shell with just a primer from different heights.
we used to tape marbles to the bottom of primed hulls and toss them in the air.
[yes sometimes they were loaded, we tossed those ones pretty far]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:48 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:05 pm
Posts: 92
If I was doing this experiment, I would drop a short, but relatively heavy steel rod with a firing pin fitted to one end down a vertical metal tube screwed to another metal tube that held a primed case. Using the E = m g h formula, once m & h were determined I would have my answer.

Of course, where I live, such a device may be considered a firearm (unregistered, with no serial number) so I will not be conducting such an experiment.
In that curcumstance, such a device would only be good for shooting yourself in the foot in more ways than one.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], chilled shot, FAMILJEGUFF, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], magnets, Majestic-12 [Bot], mikehunter1954, MSN [Bot], paul bailey, rickeroo, skeetsit, T-dan, theweed42, TwoFourThree, Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
© 2017 Carbon Media Group Outdoors    - DMCA Notice