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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:26 am 
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The exact paper I have is a .pdf entitled "Percussion Primers, Design Requirements". 26 pages.
Freely downloadable from wherever I got it 5 yrs ago.



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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:16 pm 
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OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
The exact paper I have is a .pdf entitled "Percussion Primers, Design Requirements". 26 pages.
Freely downloadable from wherever I got it 5 yrs ago.


A quick read through (google finds it) shows it pretty much lays out the variables that I did in my previous post. Could provide a decent starting point, although I would not consider any of the data itself to be accurate anymore since the paper is 50 years old.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:47 pm 
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While I would consider exact data regarding exact performance of exact primer materials as useless, yes, I however, would consider the information on design requirements, impact forces, seating, so on and so on, to be as valid today as it was in 1970, because those things just do not change.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:10 pm 
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If you build a device to ascertain strike force required by testing each brand of primer, you must remember that each test will require a new primer to be installed in the device. Prior tries without ignition on a primer will alter the results in subsequent strikes. Therefore it must be an un-altered surface.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:35 pm 
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Curly N wrote:
If you build a device to ascertain strike force required by testing each brand of primer, you must remember that each test will require a new primer to be installed in the device. Prior tries without ignition on a primer will alter the results in subsequent strikes. Therefore it must be an un-altered surface.


And that also doesn't take into account lot to lot variances, or even primer to primer variances within a lot.

I'll bet you would find within a lot that some primers would ignite with X force, and some would require X+ force.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:39 pm 
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Gunsite Guy wrote:
Does anyone know how much energy is required for the firing pin to strike the primer face of 209/209a and have reliable ignition? Any suggestions on where to find this info? Efforts at finding the experts at Winchester are underway.

Thanks in advance.

s/f Steve


If you had a device that would measure how much energy is delivered by a firing pin to a primer in a shotgun shell inside the chamber of a gun, you could simply keep cutting coils off the hammer spring until you started getting misfires. Whatever force you are getting at that point would be just below the minimum needed for consistent ignition.

If you tried this test with several different type of primers, you should be able to come up with a fairly reliable answer. And, since the device would measure the actual force delivered at the tip of the firing pin, it would automatically compensate for any lost energy due to friction or design of the delivery mechanism.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:13 pm 
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Perhaps if the "firing pin" were built with a bit of extra on the top side one could measure how far the "pin" dented the primer. No way to measure internal configuration of the primer but if the primer material is consistent one could at least measure that..... X penetration results in firing, X- does not. Larry


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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:05 pm 
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llc wrote:
Perhaps if the "firing pin" were built with a bit of extra on the top side one could measure how far the "pin" dented the primer. No way to measure internal configuration of the primer but if the primer material is consistent one could at least measure that..... X penetration results in firing, X- does not. Larry


I don't think that would give any valid information. The reason being is that when the primer does ignite the powder, the resultant setback forces on the shell case puts a much deeper dent in the primer than if it were the primer alone that was igniting. Therefore, the depth of indention would not be proportional to only the force of the firing pin. It would also have a component of the depth that was the result of the actual firing of the load and how powerful that load may have been.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:27 pm 
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To add to my original post in this thread, there could be several ways of determining the energy needed to ignite the primer.

For example, once you have determined (through experimentation) the minimum spring strength needed to consistently ignite a primer by cutting off a coil at a time of the hammer spring, you could then use some hard lightweight object (similar to a pencil) in the chamber of the gun and measure how high vertically this spring/hammer combination would propel the object.

Once you have measured this height, then you could calculate the energy needed to propel this object vertically this number of inches. I don't know the necessary formula to determine this at the moment, but I'm sure it would be an easy problem for a math/physics major to figure out the Newton-meters of the propelled object. Then, other primers could be measured against this standard to see how they compare in ignition with this force.

I don't know if this helps the OP in finding out what he is looking for, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:38 pm 
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It is some where between 4 to 6 lbs. but I don't know exactly, which is why I posted the manufacturers of Universal receivers.

A phone call answers this question.

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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:18 am 
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In my opinion, primers varry. If the the anvil not aligned correctly, generally have a misfire. I use win 209 only, and the 1000's I've used, had failures on rare occasion.


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 Post subject: Re: energy needed to ignite 209 primers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:33 am 
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chips&clays wrote:
In my opinion, primers varry. If the the anvil not aligned correctly, generally have a misfire. I use win 209 only, and the 1000's I've used, had failures on rare occasion.


Sure they do. That's why manufacturers choose the hammer spring they do--to reliably ignite primers that are used in different brands of ammunition.



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