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 Post subject: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:11 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 134
OK, I've tried search. However, struggling with something. I'm doing fine loading Remington GC, Winchester AA, and the steel based Federal top gun 12ga hulls with my Mec9000. I'm using Claybuster CB11100-12 wads for the AA and Remington hulls, and I've been using clay buster CB2100-12 wads for the Federal top guns. They work great for the steel based federal hulls. However, there are two brass washed federal hulls (one a bit more of a high brass than the other) that really don't load correctly. The wad does not seem to keep the "height" of the shot correct to get a proper crimp. A friend has been using shot cards on top of the shot to alleviate the issue. I really don't want to go that route. Is there a good wad that will correctly load them? Adjusting the crimp doesn't seem to be a solution either as I'd have to really lower the crimp to the extent that it doesn't look correct. Thoughts?




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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:27 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:28 pm
Posts: 248
Now and then there are apt similitudes from nature that apply to the actions of men.

Every racoon knows not to eat the four day old garbage out of the trash cans. Most smart reloaders leave the junk in the trash cans when picking shells from the range. Especially the ones that say on the box: "Not suitable for reloading" or "use these at your own peril".

Most coons know how to smell, but not all junk pickers can read the shell boxes.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:33 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 190
Location: Northern Michigan
Try the CB-6100-12 (neon green) made for straight walls. They are a one ounce wad but load a nice 7/8th's.

I've seen some of the brass washed with what looks to be Cheddite primers, may need a euro primer to keep them from backing out during firing.

One & done.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4569
Location: Annapolis, MD
I would sort through all the Federal hulls and sort them into 2 piles, one pile with the non-brass-washed bases and the rest in the other pile. Throw away all the hulls in the other pile. They clearly are different on the inside that the non brass-washed hulls. This is a different way of saying what Falcondriver said.

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Ceteris paribus, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:50 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 134
I understand, and that's what I've been doing. However, there is a trend where it seems to be that almost none of the federal hulls are non-brass washed at this point. I'd say at my club it's at least a 20-1 ratio between Federal brass washed and Federal non-brass washed. And it continues to move more in that direction. If that's the case, and with so many seeming to shoot federals, my access to hulls is seriously compromised.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:52 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 134
By the way, there are not trash cans nor shell boxes left at the club. We have bins for each hull manufacturer, and shooters dump their spent hulls in the bin associated with the hull manufacturer. So, no lack of "reading" and no "raccoons rooting in trash cans" here. Sometimes assumptions are just indicative of errors in judgment.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4569
Location: Annapolis, MD
Are your crimps dished or tented? If dished, the stack height is too short and you should use a wad with a taller crush section, typically one made to drop 1/8 less shot than you are dropping, or a bulkier powder. If tented, the stack height is too tall, go the other way and use a wad designed to hold 1/8 oz. less shot than you are dropping, or use a denser powder.

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Ceteris paribus, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:33 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 134
Crimps are dished. Figured I needed a taller wad. Based on how common those hulls are becoming around here I just thought maybe somebody already had a solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:59 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:45 am
Posts: 352
The federal hulls can be a pain in the but you need several types of wads next to you when you start loading. I gave up on Fed hulls and load only Remingtons and the old Win AA compression formed hulls. I only have 2 styles of wads depending on what weight i want.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:05 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 190
Location: Northern Michigan
The CB-6100-12 is a little longer than the CB-1100-12. It's also a straight wall wad. Precision reloading shows the dimensions of the wads.

What you may be seeing with the dishing is the difference between a paper and plastic basewad. I believe the paper basewads are a tad taller than the plastics. They both have the steel finish and require you to look inside the hull to see the difference.

FWIW


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
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Location: Central CT
The problem quite possibly could be.......... the hulls are the one piece Federal hull with the .090" thick basewad. They are used in Federals hunting hulls, but on the outside they look like every other Federal hull. They are not a good choice for target loads and no wad is going to fix the issue. CB6100-12 wads are barely longer than a 12SO or a CB2100-12.

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aka Mr. Tactful.
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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:27 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 134
dogchaser37 wrote:
The problem quite possibly could be.......... the hulls are the one piece Federal hull with the .090" thick basewad. They are used in Federals hunting hulls, but on the outside they look like every other Federal hull. They are not a good choice for target loads and no wad is going to fix the issue. CB6100-12 wads are barely longer than a 12SO or a CB2100-12.



Hmmm... These are being used for Skeet - fired on the skeet range, and dumped in a bin at the skeet house. Hard for me to believe that hunting factory ammo is being used by the people using this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:31 pm
Posts: 1353
Gold Medal (maroon hull ) and Grand (white hull) are great.Top gun with paper base wad are good for one and done. All other Federal target hulls suck. JMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:28 pm 
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Well cut one apart and find out what you have.

I reload a lot of Federals Gold Medals, Top Guns and probably 1,000 of the Top Guns that were Cheddite/RIO. They all load fine with no issues especially with the CB6100-12 wad.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:37 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 490
dogchaser37 wrote:
Well cut one apart and find out what you have.

I reload a lot of Federals Gold Medals, Top Guns and probably 1,000 of the Top Guns that were Cheddite/RIO. They all load fine with no issues especially with the CB6100-12 wad.


Are you saying the (RIO) Feds with the plastic BW are ......OK with the same load
components as the fiber BW feds ? I think you're Right but standard Ched 209's
are a little hard to seat in my 9000's , whereas Fed 209A's are just right !


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 215
Quote:
standard Ched 209's are a little hard to seat in my 9000s , whereas Fed 209A's are just right !


Very common.

The European shotshell primers are about 0.002" larger diameter than most US primers. Thus, they are harder to seat the first time in US hulls (like the Federal). Most loaders I know try to stick with US primers in US hulls.

Unless they will ONLY use European primers for foreseeable future, then they stuff any Euro primer in that works well with the load.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:18 pm 
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Location: Central CT
So let's qualify what I am comfortable doing and why I said that.

I use 700-X. With a 1 oz. load in a 12 ga. straight wall hull and keeping the velocity at or below 1300 FPS, you cannot exceed the SAAMI MAP of 11,500 PSI.

I purposely reloaded RIO, Gold Medal, Cheddite, Top Gun, the Top Gun hulls with the plastic basewad with Federal 209A, 19.5 Grains 700-X, CB6100-12/CB2100-12 (depending on hull/crimp) and 1 oz. of shot.

The velocities were all within about 20 FPS of each other. In other words there wasn't any real difference in the external ballistics of the 5 hulls. The average was right around 1290 FPS. This basic load has been in the Lyman manual for 4 editions in the Federal paper basewad hull (Top Gun). The load has a published velocity of 1290 FPS @ 9,500 PSI

After doing the velocity test I started using and continue to use only the CB6100-12 wad in all the above hulls.

I know that this goes against a lot of what is posted, but I am very comfortable with this load and I can/have duplicate(d) the results easily.

Further if you look at a lot of the Euro data, the hull isn't specified for a lot of loads.

I would not feel comfortable doing this with heavy/non-toxic loads, but for target loads I don't see an issue.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:26 pm 
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I did have to resize the primer pockets in the RIO's so that the Federal 209A's were tight.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:13 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 134
FYI - a few things....

Called Claybusters. Apparently, the CB6100-12 is the correct wad for that hull and is supposed to work correctly. The CB2100-12 for the non brass washed hull is correct. Claybusters kindly offered to send a batch of sample CB2100s for me to test. Very nice of them and I'm looking forward to trying them.

As for primers - I typically use the Cheddite 209s and they have pressed into any and all of the federal hulls (silver, brass washed) that I've tried. Just an FYI. My only issues have been the dished crimps.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal brass washed hulls?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:43 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 215
That's great news! Hope you're able to keep loading those bargain Fed hulls! And thanks for the info from Claybusters!

(Only reason I don't use the Cheddite primers is they have chewed the tip off the lower firing pin TWICE in my first 7500 rounds through my Browning Citori CXS. They also attack most other Citori variants, too (like 725). So, I stick to Win 209s now, with much better FP life.)

Good luck, garrisonjoe




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