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 Post subject: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
First post and most of what I have researched came from you guys, thanks for that! My head is spinning trying not to blow myself up...

I just started reloading dove loads. Shot up a couple of cases of Kent Steel Dove (1400fps, 7/8oz #6) and Kent Upland Steel (1500fps 3/4oz #6) and want to start reloading for a few reasons. I can't find dove ammo anywhere right now in my great state of Kalifornia and I have two kids that just got their hunting licenses that I want to go practice.
I want to mock the Kent Steel Dove loads.

Got a Lee Load All 2 for 20 and 12 gauge (I know the bushing loads are not what they say they are based upon steel size and powder, everything is measured and fitted with tape inside the bushings to try and stay close to load).

Here are the parts I picked up so far based on lots of reading online which I know is dangerous. Components are hard to get right now to get a good selection!

Powder Longshot
#6 Steel Shot
Kent Steel Dove (Cheddite Hull) and Upland Steel (Federal Hull, 3/4oz) 2 3/4"
Wads TUWSBL2024 (same as in Kent Steel Dove)
Primers Ched 209 (I know they will fit the Cheddite Hull, don't know about the Federal I keep seeing Fed 209A in recipes but it's for lead)

My problem is I am only finding recipes for 20 Gauge 2 3/4 lead or 3" Steel Duck loads.

I broke down and messed with the two loads to try and figure out how they are built.
First, recognize the powders?
I have lots of longshot but if I can't figure out how much to use then I'll try a different powder trying to match it. Alliant Steel seems to be the closest to the Steel Dove loads?
Can I do the same recipe in both style hulls?
Can I use the Ched 209 primer in the Federal hull? I know it's .001 smaller pocket but can ram it right in there and it fits flush.

Kent Steel Dove 20GA 2 3/4 #6 7/8oz 1400FPS
Shot .864oz #6
Wad TUWSBL2024
Powder STEEL? 18.9 Grain
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Federal Upland Steel 20GA 2 3/4 #6 1500FPS
Shot .7495oz #6
PT2090 20ga non-toxic wad
Federal Hull
Powder? 27.9 Grain Small cylinder black and brown powder
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Does anyone recommend a loading manual with recipes for steel that are current? All I'm finding in documentation is old lead or 3" steel recipes.

I need steel dove load recipes for 12 and 20 if you are willing to share.

I'll be pulling apart the same shells for 12 Guage when I can get my hands on them. I only have 20 gauge right now.




Last edited by bdjason on Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:47 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:08 am
Posts: 50
First, welcome to the site! BPI sells a manual named The Status of Steel. That should help you out with a few things. Check out the 20 gauge 3/4 ounce thread here above. The originator Dave in AZ has some other posts WITH information on reloading with steel shot. Maybe he will chime in. Or PM him. I am not sure how to copy and paste links here (or anywhere else).
I have no experience reloading with steel shot. It’s a real bummer to hear that you cannot locate ammo. We have one range here in Alaska that requires steel shot. I am not able to purchase the shells for less at the sporting goods store than at the range.
Good luck with your adventures in the reloading world! It can be very addictive!


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Gunnison
I took a brief stab at reloading steel years ago. There wasn't a lot of information about it then. Since then the waterfowl hunters have gotten into it big time and that's the place to go for help. I found this: https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/shotshe ... -steel.php


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:19 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Thanks for the recommendation on the book. Just picked that up.
I have been reading Dave's website nonstop. He references a lot of the faster loads but says they are still being worked on in his articles.

Thanks TerryS, will take a look.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Loaded a few up. The Federal upland steel was the easiest to load and crimp. The Steel Dove Cheddite seems like super pliable plastic and the body would warp if I put any pressure on them while crimping.
Loaded 16.5, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 grains of long shot with 7/8 of #6 steel. Will test next weekend and see which one I like. Ordered A Steel as it seems there are more recipes for that powder and steel than long shot.
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Are these Winchester hulls reloadable? I loaded a couple but don't know what kind of hull they are and if I should be doing so. I loaded them light to start.
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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:46 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1072
bdjason wrote:
Thanks for the recommendation on the book. Just picked that up.
I have been reading Dave's website nonstop. He references a lot of the faster loads but says they are still being worked on in his articles.

Thanks TerryS, will take a look.


Hi, glad you are finding those writeups useful ;)
20ga steel loads for dove are going to be super easy for you, because you're going to be using #6 or #7 steel and have plenty of pellets without trying to get max payload and max speed. You can kill a dove with < 0.5" penetration, so you don't have to make a very powerful shell.

You can indeed use those cheap winchester hulls, often called "universal". They load the same as all the other 20ga Win hulls. However the plastic is poor so I'd do them once only. Also, I get a ton more reloading errors (precrimp and mashed crimp errors) with them than Rem GunClub or Win AA hulls. But they're cheap and do fine. I probably have 15 gallons of them sitting around, never loaded heh.

For 20ga steel, I'd just purchase the BPI Advantages manual. There are a ton of 3/4oz 20ga loads in there that will all work. You can use any hull you have a recipe for...which is most all except Win, for some reason. However, I would use the Rem info with a low pressure load with the Win hulls (just for myself). For steel shot, Alliant and Hodgdon don't have any 20ga loads, only BPI really. Also some wadsheets for various 20ga wads, which generally can be traced back to BPI test data anyways. So get that Advantages manual. It contains most of the loads from their Status of Steel book, plus lead and ITX-13 and bismuth (or at least the 8th edition I have does).

Anyways, I'd use their reipe 60119-W1069M. Fed Field hull (all 20ga fed hulls are the same with the fiber basewad), Fed209A primer, Alliant Steel powder, CSD20 wad (aka B&P 2024 sold at Precision and others). 3/4oz or 328grains of steel shot, they tested #3 but #6 or 7 will be fine and should give less pressure. 11200 psi, 1400fps. They have 8gr of buffer and an OverShot card, but you don't need any of that and it will reduce pressure. I'd place a felt wad or cork wad you can cut yourself under the shot as needed to raise it to the wad lip. Toss a cheerio on top or an OS card if the wad isn't sitting high enough for the fold crimp. I just cut small squares of cardboard from shell boxes and toss that on top when needed. Their book will tell you the correct powder amount. They also have a recipe for the PT2090 wad, but I'd get the csd20 as it's a good versatile 3/4oz steel wad.

There are also recipes for cheddite hulls, which the Herters from Cabelas used to be, and still are if they are back in supply. 800x, Herco, longshot, all with csd20. Fiocchi same plus asteel also.

I've sent in a bunch of tests with cheddite 20ga 2.75" hulls, asteel, csd20, and 7/8oz or 382gr of #4 or #3 steel shot, and been just over SAAMI pressure at 1500-1560 fps. I have had no issues at all with loads of 355gr 13/16oz or less, so those 3/4oz loads should be easy. Also, you don't need to use the full max powder they list, a bit less speed is fine for dove loads.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:59 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1072
bdjason wrote:
Loaded 16.5, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 grains of long shot with 7/8 of #6 steel. Will test next weekend and see which one I like.


Hey, I just saw this-- I would NOT SHOOT THOSE!
Where did you get the data to load those?
It is extremely difficult to get a full 7/8oz of steel in a 2.75" 20ga hull to stay under SAAMI pressure, I've studied it and sent in 10 various loads all optimized to try to get that full 7/8oz, and NONE have ever been within limits! I know of only one single test that has succeeded, and I've worked on that exact load (20ga, 2.75", 7/8oz steel) more than any other load! The only way to get close is with Asteel or LilGun powders, and the only success what with a roll crimp. I would think that LongShot has absolutely zero chance of being safe!

Those loads are all WAAAY overpressure. The only listed data I can find for LongShot is with 3/4oz loads and 17.0-18gr of powder, and all of them are 11,500-11,800 psi! The max average pressure is 12,000 psi for 20ga. If you put 7/8oz of shot with 16.5gr longshot, it's gonna be over pressure and that 22gr one will be hella over. In fact, most of the longshot steel loads that were published back in 2016 were pulled from the BPI books for being higher pressures than listed even!


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:16 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Dave in AZ wrote:
bdjason wrote:
Loaded 16.5, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 grains of long shot with 7/8 of #6 steel. Will test next weekend and see which one I like.


Hey, I just saw this-- I would NOT SHOOT THOSE!
Where did you get the data to load those?
It is extremely difficult to get a full 7/8oz of steel in a 2.75" 20ga hull to stay under SAAMI pressure, I've studied it and sent in 10 various loads all optimized to try to get that full 7/8oz, and NONE have ever been within limits! I know of only one single test that has succeeded, and I've worked on that exact load (20ga, 2.75", 7/8oz steel) more than any other load! The only way to get close is with Asteel or LilGun powders, and the only success what with a roll crimp. I would think that LongShot has absolutely zero chance of being safe!

Those loads are all WAAAY overpressure. The only listed data I can find for LongShot is with 3/4oz loads and 17.0-18gr of powder, and all of them are 11,500-11,800 psi! The max average pressure is 12,000 psi for 20ga. If you put 7/8oz of shot with 16.5gr longshot, it's gonna be over pressure and that 22gr one will be hella over. In fact, most of the longshot steel loads that were published back in 2016 were pulled from the BPI books for being higher pressures than listed even!


Thanks for the huge knowledge dump! Glad I didn't make it out last weekend.
I pulled those loads off random places online.

https://www.precisionreloading.com/docs ... site-2.pdf

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... &p=3700839


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:09 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 490
Me too , Thanks Dave ! With 40 lbs of steel 6's on hand and the Status of Steel to guide me
I got plans for the 20 and 28 ga's for this years upland hunting . pigeons too !


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:45 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Unloading the 18-22 grain longshot. Thanks for the heads up...

Picked up 5000 Winchester AA once shot (old style) 12ga hulls a buddy had in his garage.
Attachment:
08F307E2-6C10-42E7-A419-8D459D23FAF5.jpeg


Purchased Advantages and have Status of Steel.

Based off your experiences which powder is the most universal for 20 gauge steel? I jumped the gun reading the forums and bought 4lbs of longshot and 4lbs of A Steel to find out there isn't many recipes.

Next I'm looking at a Mec 9000 as I need to turn out two cases a week to keep up with what we are shooting.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:22 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1072
Bdjason, those two links you gave for where you got recipes are a little problematic. The second one from shotgun world was all talking about lead shot not steel shot which is completely different pressures. All those number fives and sixes people were recommending for their favorite bird load is Led fives and sixes.

The other one looks like a 2018 load data sheet from Precision reloading which I haven't seen but looks like it's primarily a Target loading for steel shot since they're using two and three quarter inch 20 gauge, with no one uses except for target shooting.
It has a single 78 South Steele load in a cheddite hall at 16.5 grains of Longshot, and it's only 330 PSI away from Max Pressure oh, so it's pretty much right at the limit already. That should tell you that you can't add anymore powder to that load without exceeding MAX Pressure. There's one more Longshot load in 7/8 oz in a fiocchi halt witches I think 11470 PSI and only 17 grains of Longshot, so again pretty close to Max Pressure and not something I would go above without a test.

They're using blue. And Alliance steel mostly. They're also using IMR blue which is supposedly a replica of blue. At least with lead loads, but you can see from the data that it's not exact match with the steel loads. The data for Speed and pressure is very close between the blue. And steel, and always has been, and you can see there's not much difference at all between them for the 7/8 ounce steel loads in 2 and 3/4 inch 20 gauge. Certainly there is no big pressure buffer which would indicate any of these loads could be increased oh, they are already right up at the max.

And all of my 20 gauge testing in both the 3in and shorter holes, I have found Lil gun to be the best powder 4 steel shot. It has given me the best speeds with the lowest pressures and certainly in 3-inch I wouldn't use anything else. However there is very little data published for two and three quarter inch 20 gauge and I didn't see any on this data sheet. You'll have to look at advantages manual to find that powder. Steel powder looks like it is as good as anything else for these short twenties with published data and it will give you more options than any other powder for steel loading so that is what I would concentrate on.
I dictated this so if you see the word Hull spelled Hall or hole it's the jacked up voice recognition... I see there's a bunch of jacked up words that got stuck in here instead of what I actually said, but I'm on my phone so I'm not going to go back up above and edit this I think it's clear enough for you understand what I'm saying. Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Thanks Dave. I pulled everything I had loaded but load 216 from Precision https://www.precisionreloading.com/docs ... site-2.pdf

First half the box shot great this morning. Then I had a failure where the hull broke at the brass and melted it's self in the barrel. It was a 10 yard in my face shot and I got the bird but there was definatly no power behind it. I did not shoot again and retired the reloads and M2 to the truck and went back to factory loads with another gun.
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Where did I go wrong? I hand measured all of the shells. I'm thinking maybe I stressed the hull at the base when I crimped? I inspected all loads for creases and this shell didn't have one. Federal Upland Steel 2 3/4" 1500FPS 3/4 #6 Hull.

We shoot 2 3/4, 3, 3.5 inch for hunting and are restricted to nontoxic only.

And how do I get the melted plastic out of the barrel? I did a bunch of searching online and only came up with removing hulls that aren't melted in to the barrel.
Image
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To say I'm a little gun-shy on reloading now is an understatement. Back to the drawing board and I'll shoot my double gun just so I can check the barrels every time.
Advantages Manual hasn't shipped yet. I'm not touching anything else until I get it...

Really appreciate everyone's knowledge on this board!


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 472
bdjason wrote:
Loaded a few up. The Federal upland steel was the easiest to load and crimp. The Steel Dove Cheddite seems like super pliable plastic and the body would warp if I put any pressure on them while crimping.
Loaded 16.5, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 grains of long shot with 7/8 of #6 steel. Will test next weekend and see which one I like. Ordered A Steel as it seems there are more recipes for that powder and steel than long shot.


Are these Winchester hulls reloadable? I loaded a couple but don't know what kind of hull they are and if I should be doing so. I loaded them light to start.


YOUR LOADS ARE WILDLY HOT HOT HOT!!!!

2-3/4 Cheddite hull
Ched209
CSD20 (TUWSBL2024)
7/8 oz steel shot
16.5 gr of Longshot with your components is 11,690 psi @ 1,239 fps.

https://www.precisionreloading.com/docs ... site-2.pdf

ETA- I didn't read further than the quote before posting. Good to hear these loads were pulled.[/color]


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:25 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Hal4son wrote:
bdjason wrote:
Loaded a few up. The Federal upland steel was the easiest to load and crimp. The Steel Dove Cheddite seems like super pliable plastic and the body would warp if I put any pressure on them while crimping.
Loaded 16.5, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 grains of long shot with 7/8 of #6 steel. Will test next weekend and see which one I like. Ordered A Steel as it seems there are more recipes for that powder and steel than long shot.


Are these Winchester hulls reloadable? I loaded a couple but don't know what kind of hull they are and if I should be doing so. I loaded them light to start.


YOUR LOADS ARE WILDLY HOT HOT HOT!!!!

2-3/4 Cheddite hull
Ched209
CSD20 (TUWSBL2024)
7/8 oz steel shot
16.5 gr of Longshot with your components is 11,690 psi @ 1,239 fps.

https://www.precisionreloading.com/docs ... site-2.pdf

ETA- I didn't read further than the quote before posting. Good to hear these loads were pulled.[/color]


Ha ha yeah, I'm listening! I have that loaded up but did not shoot it today due to goobering up my barrel with the A Steel load. Now I don't want to get anywhere near 12K psi.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 472
Can relate to that feeling. Longshot is known for developing pressure quickly under steel shot payloads. However I don't believe there is anything wrong with the Precision data. I would shoot the ones that comply with the data as long as I was certain that they had been kept separate from the overloads.

As to your stuck case, load #216 lists a Cheddite hull and you specify that you used a Federal hull. It's impossible to guess how that affected pressures.

Shotgun reloading is no place for substitutions and that is especially true when loading steel shot. Steel shot is less forgiving and generates higher pressures than lead.

ETA- Reducing shot weight will always reduce pressures in a load (all other things being equal). If you're concerned and want to error on the side of caution, reduce the shot drop 1/16th to 1/8th oz.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Posts: 8
Hal4son wrote:
Can relate to that feeling. Longshot is known for developing pressure quickly under steel shot payloads. However I don't believe there is anything wrong with the Precision data. I would shoot the ones that comply with the data as long as I was certain that they had been kept separate from the overloads.

As to your stuck case, load #216 lists a Cheddite hull and you specify that you used a Federal hull. It's impossible to guess how that affected pressures.

Shotgun reloading is no place for substitutions and that is especially true when loading steel shot. Steel shot is less forgiving and generates higher pressures than lead.

ETA- Reducing shot weight will always reduce pressures in a load (all other things being equal). If you're concerned and want to error on the side of caution, reduce the shot drop 1/16th to 1/8th oz.


Load #215 is the same with Federal Hull. My mistake putting up #216.

I'm defiantly looking at going 3/4oz instead of 7/8. If I want a bigger load I'll shoot 12ga but for pidgeon/dove I feel it's overkill.

Thanks for the reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Reloading 20 Gauge Kent Steel Dove Loads
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:55 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1072
When the hull rips away from the brass head and lodges in the barrel it is generally because of an overpressure load. What happens to the pressure Rises so fast that before the crimp can open to release the pressure exceeds the tensile strength of the plastic hull and rips it away from the restraining metal base.

I noticed in your first post you said you were using the Lee load all, and had taped the bushings to give accurate measurements. Later you said you were measuring all the components. I measure witb a digital scale with every steel shot load that I make both powder and the shot itself is weighed for every single shell. If you are using bushings to load shot or powder with the Lee load all then you are for sure going to exceed the allowable volume in one of them it's just not accurate enough.

Additionally the crimp depth can have a 1500 PSI or even 3000 psi difference depending on whether it's shallow or overly deep. I forget whether it was precision or who did the test but it's published somewhere and I'm sure I wrote it up in one of my blogs. Additionally a test that I sent in with some 12 gauge load that had a Crip depth of 070 inch vs 055 inch which is the industry standard, resulted in a almost 1,500 PSI difference.

Another thing that you might be doing that can cause the crimp to not open or delay opening to the point pressure exceeds allowable is if you allow the upper lip of the wad to be above the shot for any reason and get trapped in the lip of the crimp then as the wad moves forward the petals will exert pressure at the top of the crimps but not opening pressure. I've seen this result in hulls getting ripped away from the base also.




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