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 Post subject: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:14 am
Posts: 13
Why? Why are they not interchangeable?

I have Federal 209A, Rem 97* and Win209 on the shelf. Trying to find some combination of components that will allow me to use each of them becomes a three dimensional matrix of epic proportion.

Metallic cartridge primers are interchangeable within a given classification why aren't shotshell primers? Is there a valid reason than standardization never occurred?

Inquiring minds want to know.




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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Annapolis, MD
The 209 size has been the standard for many years. That Rem 97* might be different. The European 209-sized primers a a bit larger in diameter than the US primers and will stretch the primer pockets of the US-made hulls. But, I believe the differences you are referring to are in what some call "hottness." There is no standard for this dimension and a given primer might behave differently with a different powder. With the exception of the 97* primer, you should be able to find loads that allow you to use all of your primers. The loads will perform differently with the different primers.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 208
There are big differences with the Federal 209A because it usually produces higher pressures in a given load than do the Win 209 or Remington 97 or 209P primers.

Why? Because some loads and powders just need a hotter primer. (Somewhat like a magnum primer used in centerfire reloading.)

So, consult good loading data and start your shotshell loading career by following the "No Substitutions of any components" guidelines until you have some experience with how important that rule is to your particular type of loading. Shotshell loading is not as "easy going" as metallic, because pressure signs don't show up as reliably in shotshells.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


Last edited by garrisonjoe on Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:50 am
Posts: 18
I ran the recipes for AAHS shells using 20/28 or universal powder. In both 12 and 28 gauge. 3/4, 1 and 1 1/8oz

I combined all the data from alliant and hogdon into a spreadsheet.

Normalized the data for primers, wads and hulls as they were not formatted the same.

Added a column for gauge and then filter based on what I have or can find locally.

Plan to add bushings column as well, once I have more than two and have checked the grains with a scale.



Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:41 pm 
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Location: Annapolis, MD
Maybe the Fed primer is hotter because Fed determined the marginal cost of making its primer hotter was more than offset by the cost savings they enjoy by being able to put a bit less powder in their factory loads.

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Ceteris paribus, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:14 am
Posts: 13
I fully understand that there are differences that must be taken into consideration.

I've been reloading shotshells for decades. I just never understood how the industry didn't come to an agreement on primer specifications so that any primer is suitable for a particular combination of components.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 7206
Location: Central CT
Centerfire primers are no different than Shotshell primers they are not all the same nor do you want them to be.

For 12 gauge shotshell target loads, in most cases, there is very little difference in internal or external ballistics when using a different primer. However as the relative guickness of the powder slows down, the difference for which primer you use/need is very important.

If what you suggest came to be, then all primers would have to be as hot as the Federal 209A. You folks maybe very in tune with target loads but there are lots of us that reload for hunting and I don't want to only have one choice of primer.

The primers that the reloader has available and the primers that go in factory loads are not the same primers in many cases. You won't light off many good heavy hunting loads using Remington 209STS primers.

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Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:25 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:06 pm
Posts: 3669
FWIW,at a yard sale,I bought a 12ga sta to sta 12ga reloader,which had a 1950's date on the postage
marker.It was sold by Sears and appeared to be made by Texan reloaders?It was never used and had some mouse bites on the cardboard box.What was unique,is that it had a station that you could decap the spent primer and then punch out the the anvil out of the spent primer.You then could insert a new
large pistol primer into the spent primer hull after reinserting the fired anvil and then reseat the new
unfired primer.It did work that way and I sold it for a fairly good profit,to a reloader.So,what mark says is right,but performance,is another matter?


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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:51 pm 
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Location: Annapolis, MD
^^That part about reloading the primers, while astonishing, makes sense. Back in those days, the primer was probably by far the most expensive component. Akin to the cost of shot today.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:06 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 5935
Location: Newton Kansas
dogchaser37 wrote:
Centerfire primers are no different than Shotshell primers they are not all the same nor do you want them to be.

For 12 gauge shotshell target loads, in most cases, there is very little difference in internal or external ballistics when using a different primer. However as the relative guickness of the powder slows down, the difference for which primer you use/need is very important.

If what you suggest came to be, then all primers would have to be as hot as the Federal 209A. You folks maybe very in tune with target loads but there are lots of us that reload for hunting and I don't want to only have one choice of primer.

The primers that the reloader has available and the primers that go in factory loads are not the same primers in many cases. You won't light off many good heavy hunting loads using Remington 209STS primers.



All of this.

If your load isn't screaming at maximum pressure, the extra pressure of the 209A is of no concern.

If I am in Western Ks in January at 20*F or so chasing Mr. Ringneck and have to light off around 40grains of Blue Dot, I want nothing to do with that Remington Primer.
Or Fiocci 616's.
The really weak primers work just fine when it's 80* out and I am only lighting 18gr of Red Dot.

It's the same exact thing in Metallic.
I TRIED (once), lighting .357 casefulls of Accurate 1680 with standard WSP's. bad BAD idea, very erratic (audibly), couple hangfires and a squib.
WSP Magnums (WSPM's) and they shot perfectly well.

A whole lot less (but still full-charge) of Red Dot in a 9x19mm and use any primer you want to, they'll light just fine.

People who combine the "cooler" Remington and CCI rifle primers with my .308W casefulls of Spherical Powder (W748, BallC(2), etc), many use Magnum Primers to get them to light consistently. Double-Base Ball Powders are harder to light than extruded Single Base stick powder.
I prefer the very hot Winchesters (WLR's), never any problems (have not tested below -6*F though)........

SOMETIMES things are interchangeable.
SOMETIMES not so much.

The Underwear Rule>........... It "Depends".

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I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotshell Primer Differences
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:26 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:21 am
Posts: 420
There all the same size give or take a few
Ks. except some of the earlier foreign primers I measured them. If you use a win primer It has a 2 step to make them enter and seat easier. Its so seldom that I have one with a lite strike that doesn't go off.




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