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 Post subject: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:26 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Manheim, PA
So I recently purchased a 16 ga. die set for my MEC 600 jr press (pre 82). I made sure to order the correct die set for the older model. After installing the new die set I started reloading the new fiocchi hulls that I had purchased. I used the recipe suggested in the Lyman reloading handbook for a 1oz load with green dot as that was the powder I had available. After dropping and weighing the powder charge I proceeded the place the wad and drop the shot. I then started a 6 star crimp and then moved onto the next step. Here is where my problem lies, when I went to finished the crimp it pushed the crimp completely down in the hull. So I adjusted the cam crimp punch up as far as possible but still got the same result. I then adjusted the crimp die cam and swirled the crimp and collapsed the hull. So I backed off the crimp die cam a little and went back to pushing the crimp down in the hull. Am I doing something wrong or is just a trial and error until you get it right?




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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2104
Location: Central NH
It sounds like a stack height issue.

When you drop the shot, how far is it below the top of the hull? How about the wad petals?


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:47 am 
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Location: Central CT
The top of the shot should be about 5/16" +/- from the mouth of the hull.

What components are you using? Are you actually dropping a full 1 oz. of shot? Are you actually dropping the correct amount of powder?

Not sure if you know this or not but, you can't rely on bushings and bars to drop the correct amounts of powder and shot, they normally drop light from what is stated on the charts.

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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 6320
Location: Neosho, MO
Which wad were you using? I prefer the SG-16 wad for all my 1 oz 16 ga loads, and use Universal Clays powder for a little more bulk. Get great crimps with those components on my preferred 1200 fps loadings. I go through a lot of SG-16 wads.

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An elderly gentleman, his faithful dogs, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 855
The large volume of hulls frequently creates problems with stack height in 16 gauge reloading.
You can put a card wad or a cheerio cereal on top of your shot to support the crimp, as a quick fix.
There is a lot of info on 16ga.com to help you out.
Ballistic Products has two useful wads for straight wall 16 gauge hulls - SG16 and Z16.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:04 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:26 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Manheim, PA
I am using SP16 wads and the shot and wad are measuring 1/2" below the top of the hull. The shot fills the wad cup up to the top of the petals. I have not measured the shot but the powder charge is .2 or .3 grains below the 19 grains called for of green dot.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2104
Location: Central NH
You need a different wad, or some sort of filler to make up the stack height difference.

The SP 16 is listed as a 1 1/8 oz wad on the BPI site. I'd order some SG 16's from BPI, and shelve the SP 16 wads.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:31 pm
Posts: 2531
Location: Virginia
I'd just drop a thin overshot card on top of the shot. You can also cut 1/2" squares from heavy bond typing paper and use them the same way.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:14 pm 
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Riflemeister has it right.

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Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2104
Location: Central NH
dogchaser37 wrote:
Riflemeister has it right.

Except...

he didn't post in this thread. :mrgreen:

Doh...wrong again.


Last edited by painter* on Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:26 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Manheim, PA
Riflemeister,
How many grain of universal are you using? Hodgdon site lists 20.5 to 22.5 grains. Would this be a field load or target?


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 6320
Location: Neosho, MO
I'm using the #28 bushing in my MEC 9000 to give right at 1200 fps with 1 oz loads I use for just about everything, clay targets, preserve birds and wild quail with #7 shot. My loader is currently set up for 7/8 oz skeet loads using the DR-16 wad and 700X powder, so I'll have to search my notes and see if I recorded the powder drops on my 1 oz loads. I do know the powder bushing charts in the back of the Lyman manual were off on my press using Universal and I had to increase a couple of bushing sizes as my first attempt using the chart was 1165 fps. Hope to find that info for you today, but if you have a chronograph, I would recommend doing your own testing.

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An elderly gentleman, his faithful dogs, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 6320
Location: Neosho, MO
Found it. 21.5 gr Universal clays. I set the wad seating to just barely nudge the wad pressure gauge. I've loaded Cheddite, Winchester Game Loads, Remington Game Loads, RIO, Federal and Fiocchi hulls with the SG-16 wad and one set-up on my MEC 9000 and good crimps on all.

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An elderly gentleman, his faithful dogs, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:19 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:26 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Manheim, PA
Thank you for the information. I have not yet purchased my chronograph but it is on my wishlist for the very near future,


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:20 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:26 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Manheim, PA
So I am never one to leave anything alone and must figure out why something doesn't seem to work when other things tell me they should, I played around a bit with the SP16 wads and different powders and their respective charges per lyman's manual for a 1 oz load. I even verified that the charge bar was throwing the correct shot charge, which it was. If i seated the wad myself so that it was down against the powder, I would get .55 in. from the top of the wad to the top of the case. Even going to a 1-1/8 oz charge did not fill the hull enough to give a proper crimp. I have since ordered SG16 wads to try but I would like to use the SP16 since I have 250 of them.

Would I be better suited to use an over powder cards, undershot card or overshot card to make up the difference?

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:33 pm 
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Location: Central CT
The most forgiving would be 24 gauge 1/4" fiber, Precision Reloading has them.

I think the most inexpensive, would be 1 or 2, 24 gauge 1/8" nitro cards under the shot. Precision Reloading and Ballistics have them.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
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Location: Kansas
Try the Downrange DR-16 wad, problem solved. Also Fiocchi 16 ga hulls are the sorriest of sorry. You will never get a decent crimp. Remington SP16 hulls are the best currently available

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 855
I had no problem getting good crimps with new Fiocchi primed 16 gauge cases on a Lee Loadall, often derided as a loader.
It is all about proper wad and stack height.


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:52 am 
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First of all there is very little data for them. Second, after a couple of loads, they are splitting and lastly, I find that the six fold crimp has poor memory

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: New Fiocchi 16 ga hull problem
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 6320
Location: Neosho, MO
One thing I had to come to grips with on reloading shotgun shells was that not every published load was going to give satisfactory crimps or performance. I made the decision to keep trying different loads until I found one that had the performance (shot weight and velocity) I wanted and would give good crimps without fillers or overshot wads/cards. Some people have no qualms about adding a Cheerio or overshot cards to their loads to make something work, but my thought has always been that there must be a straight up load to suit my purposes.



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An elderly gentleman, his faithful dogs, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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