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 Post subject: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:38 pm
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Hi, all. Novice reloader here trying to collect as much info as I can. I’ve settled on a recipe (Winchester AA HS hulls, CB-5050-410HS wads, W296 powder, W209 primers)

From reading about reloading Winchester AA HS hulls on my MEC 600 jr, it seems other reloaders found a little trouble with loose crimps where the shot rattles. Some suggest overshot cards, and others say it is possible to adjust the reloader to crimp correctly. Can anyone share their experience with how to overcome this problem on the MEC 600 jr? This gentleman solves the problem by topping it off with shot from a .3cc Lee Dipper:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ezsFkLHBsyY&t=17s (explained at 8:00)

I want to understand the problem fully before I set out to reload. Kind regards.




Last edited by Northeast410 on Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:02 am 
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With what you go for components

First, change out to a PC baffle to solve migration problems with the ball powder past the factory seal.

On powder bushing, ream to .296" ID.

On shot bushing, ream until it drops 226Gr of shot in #8. the 1/2oz bushing you now have, it dropping about 214gr of shot instead. Since I don't know what brand of shot you are using, can't give you a target for what size to ID ream to.
You can try #9 instead of #8, but some have had problems with the smaller shot migrating on the Jrs. Also, if you have not pulled the shot drop tubes to ID polish them, then give the shot drop tube a tap before you pull the hull to the next station to solve any shot bridging problems in tube.

What you will end up is a legal NSSA load, and pushing about 1325FPS so the pattern does not hot spot center on target. If you need a choke for skeet, start with .004" restriction, and if the target are not breaking hard enough for your liking on a center punch hit, the swap over to .006" instead.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:46 am 
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Northeast410

Well then lets start you off with some novice information. IMHO there is no reason to ream a powder bushing out to any dimension. Buy a scale and find a bushing that gets you as close as possible to 16 grains of W296. Everyone loads/imparts different amounts of vibration to a machine,so for someone to tell you to ream a bushing to "XY" dimension might not work for you.
Now if you want to eliminate some of the vibration from the loading process, some guys de-prime/re-size and then prime their hulls first,maybe in batches of 100 for example. Those 2 steps cause most of the vibration / powder settling on a 600.
The bar as is will drop close enough to 1/2 oz. of lead for a novice loader. (maybe 10 - 12 pellets short). This can be addressed at a latter date when you are more experienced at loading 410.
You can load 410 on a MEC 600JR. just fine after some fine tuning adjustments.

Have Fun
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
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Location: Attica, Mi
Steve, I think he was reaming out the shot side of the bar, not the powder bushing. That would giving more shot and would take up some room giving a better crimp. Also, the more vibration, the more powder and shot will fill the bar so the more space will be taken up in the shell. It's what he's after. Next, does the OP know how to adjust a Mec final crimp station ? Adjusting the plunger down makes a little more shoulder which in turn takes up more space. A half inch wrench to loosen the jam nut and a long, thin, single bladed screw driver is needed. Hold the charge handle a bit down with your arm or belly [ sometimes the start crimp die has to be removed ] , loosen the jam nut, and turn the plunger screw in a turn. Put everything back and try a shell or two. There's no good reason a good crimp can't be had with a Mec.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6118
Location: Mascoutah IL
No reason to ream anything or worry about the occasional shell with shot rattling in your shell. The 410 is the only shell that I occasionally have a shell that I can hear shot rattling if I shake it. I hear the same thing occasionally with factory AAs and it does not seem to have an impact on the shell's ability to break a target.

If you have every shell doing it, you might want to adjust your crimp a little deeper or use different component combinations. Also make sure you are not crushing your wad with too much seating pressure. For me, the 12a bushing drops 16.5 grains of 296 and it makes for a great 410 load.

You also do not need to use an overshot card or Cheerio. Load em and shoot em.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:02 am 
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bladesmith wrote:
Steve, I think he was reaming out the shot side of the bar, not the powder bushing. .


Dano523 wrote:
On powder bushing, ream to .296" ID.


Steve

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I repair MEC presses. PM me.
Used to be Steve Y


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:23 pm
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For the OP - maybe I missed it, but did you say what you expect to shoot with your .410? If it's skeet, load #9 shot. If you use #8 (as suggested in another reply) you will give up some targets due to poor pattern density. If you tighten your choke to solve this, you will also give up some targets.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 reloading Winchester AA HS.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:38 pm
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SWN wrote:
For the OP - maybe I missed it, but did you say what you expect to shoot with your .410?


I plan to load a bit and have fun with some clays. If it matters, gun has modified choke.

I have yet to decide on a shot size. I was thinking that would be a future post when I collect my thoughts and do more reading. I was initially thinking somewhere between #7-#8 shot, but now you’ve fed my brain about #9.


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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:30 am 
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Northeast410 wrote:
Hi, all. Novice reloader here trying to collect as much info as I can. I’ve settled on a recipe (Winchester AA HS hulls, CB-5050-410HS wads, W296 powder, W209 primers)

I want to understand the problem fully before I set out to reload. Kind regards.

This may be a perfect case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Since it appears the OP has never reloaded a single .410, and seems to be consumed by "what if's", I would suggest that he just get his proposed components together (I like to load#8.5's in .410), sit down at the bench and go for it. He'll know soon enough, within a dozen or so reloads, (1) whether he's set up the 600 Jr. and is operating it correctly (not rocket surgery but we were all first timers once) and (B) that the reloads actually look and feel like loaded shells (primers flush, hulls not crushed, crimps nicely folded, not too much shot or powder spilled, etc), he's well on his way. A bonus will come when these reloads are actually dropped into the chamber of his shotgun (They fit !!) and that first clay target is broken (or at least shot at) and the hull ejected for its second trip thru the reloader. Any of you guys remember that feeling of satisfaction shooting your first reloads ?? I do, 40+ years ago...
If any of the above leads to issues or problems, the acumulated reloading brain trust here can addressed them, any and all, and fix 'em. It may just turn out that the first, sixth and six hundreth reload came out just fine, meet the OP's needs and puts his mind to rest.
Lots of other stuff in this life to worry about....


Last edited by Saltydog055 on Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:19 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:52 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: Grayling, MI
For skeet #8.5 or #9 shot. 243 verse 290 in pellet count. I use AA410HS wads over 16.4 grs of 300MP. Which likely meters the same. In the 410 even a tight pressed crimp may have some rattle. Meaning not every bb is compressed. Also some skeet fields stipulate ONLY #9 shot. I just shot my first small gauge competition event of Skeet, Trap, Five-stand, & Sporting Clay's. Placed fourth I shot AA410-#8.5 for every thing. I used a combiation of .005", .007", & .009" chokes as needed. Trap used a 14 yard line for this event, no other targets where over 35 yards if you shot quick.


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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 5652
Location: Northern Virginia
The OP never said what powder bushing he is using.

Simply bumping it up one bushing size will most likely solve his problem.....provided he has satisfactory crimps....and the extra velocity isn't going to be a problem at Sporting clays.

I've been reloading 410 since 1983....and have never, ever, reamed a bushing or shot bar.


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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:37 am 
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I use an ancient MEC UCB in my equally-ancient MEC .410 loader. Makes it easy to get things "just right."

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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 am 
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desmobob is absolutely correct..... lots of bad reports around about the UCB as folks seem to expect absolutely perfect weight every time.. that does not even happen with bushings. One must remember that both bushings and UCB produce volume drops, not weight drops. Changed powder a few weeks ago and took perhaps 2 minutes to dial in from 18.4 grains of Titegroup to 19.6 of Vectan AS. Just went to the press and charged a hull and weighed the result. 19.5 grains after I've loaded about 2000 rounds.......... Larry


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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:19 am 
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Nothing wrong with the Universal Charge Bar, so long as you open it up, and adjust it smaller as you are weight dropping to come up with our ideal drop weights.

The moment that you are try to weight drop measure as you are opening the size up instead, is when you have all kinds of problem with heavy drops down the line isntead.

Hence there is slop in the adjustments, and if you try to go larger on the adjustment, (isntead heaver then needed and adjusting smaller to hit the ideal drop weiht), here is where the slop in the system is going to bite you in the arse with heaver drop in a few shells isntead.


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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:15 pm
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Location: Northern Virginia
One thing I recall reading about on these forums in the past about the UCB, is that the changing size of the cavity does not remain on a constant center. Meaning, if you swap out bushings, the bushings both have the same center in the bar. But the UPC, one side closes towards the other side, and when you get down to 410-size quantities, that orifice is really off center from where it would be for a 12 ga.

This could lead to some problems when the bar is slid under the powder bottle.

Just something to consider.


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 Post subject: Re: (.410 reloading) Shot rattling in Winchester AA HS
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:19 pm 
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John Henry wrote:
One thing I recall reading about on these forums in the past about the UCB, is that the changing size of the cavity does not remain on a constant center. Meaning, if you swap out bushings, the bushings both have the same center in the bar. But the UPC, one side closes towards the other side, and when you get down to 410-size quantities, that orifice is really off center from where it would be for a 12 ga.

This could lead to some problems when the bar is slid under the powder bottle.

Just something to consider.



:roll:

Is that why I keep blowing up .410 shotguns? :wink:

Exactly what problems have you had using the UCB with the .410 MEC Jr.?

I bought my MEC .410 loader, equipped with a UCB, used, from a good friend who is also probably the best shooter at our club. He used that set-up for years until he started shooting more .410 and upgraded to a progressive machine.

If there were any issues, or even potential issues, I'm sure he would have told me. And one or both of us probably would have experienced them.



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