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 Post subject: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:51 pm 
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Hi Folks,

Longtime pistol and rifle reloader, newbie shotshell reloader here.

Aside from a few powders like Unique, I don't see much crossover powders specified for 12 gauge shotshell.

Looking at the burn rate chart, Clays is faster than W231, but I don't see any W231 loads for shotshell. Hodgen Universal is faster than Viht 330, but I don't see the Viht loads for shotgun...

Looking at other powders specified for shotshell, I see other pistol powders close to the same burn rate, but they aren't specified.

Logic would suggest that a slower powder should be safe to substitute for a faster powder (of the same charge weight) but there is a strong admonition not to change any recipe. And I don't know how to judge how close I am to a max charge with shotshell - do primers flatten? Do you chronograph them?

So what is so magic about shotshell powders?




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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:02 pm 
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Information on Shotshell loading

by Johan Loubser:

Recoil:

This is certainly the most discussed aspect of the shotgun shooting sport, and this is understandably so, because it determines the “comfort” of shooting hundreds of rounds in quick succession. (See section below on “Perceived recoil” and ergonomics). Because it’s such a subjective issue/subject, the conclusions and recommendations are most of the time unfortunately shrouded in confusion, and corrupted by improper comparisons.

First of all we need to emphasize and acknowledge the following important facts:

First, there is true recoil energy in measured Ft/lbs of the gun itself, and once the shooter becomes part of the equation, the very subjective issue of “Perceived” or “Felt” recoil.

True Recoil:

Normal physics still do apply, and in this case Newton’s Third law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Formula: Mass of bullet + Mass of powder x Velocity (projectile) = Mass-gun x Velocity-gun.

If different groups of ammunition, with the same shot mass are delivering the same velocity in a particular shotgun, the recoil WILL be the same.

“Perceived” or Felt” recoil:

Ergonomics:

Because the shooter forms a part of the “launching platform”, this reaction of the total platform will be as diverse as there are shooters.
One must see the ammunition, gun and shooter as a three part “system” (Combination) forming this “launching platform”. The way these three parts interact and interface, will determine “how” the recoil takes place, and how the shooter will “perceive” or “feel” “experience” the recoil. (Notice the emotional aspects)
Since the body is the heaviest part of the total recoiling mass, which anchors the system to the ground, it has the most inertial resistance. Since the body is soft, that part of the body interfacing directly with the shotgun, will absorb the energy long before the body starts moving (displacing). Thus the maximum absorption takes place in the few inches of muscle and tissue directly behind the butt.
That’s why sometimes small and minute differences in gun design, hold/stance and balance will lessen the effects of recoil, and this will eventually directly determine the level of bruising/punishment, and as such the endurance of the shooter. This endurance-threshold will directly impact the shooters abilities to remain focused and accurate.
This “endurance-threshold” is different for each shooter, and are determined by various aspects of the individual’s body structure re muscle, developed muscle (training), body weight and length (Tall = usually flexible, absorb energy better, softer feel, or short stocky = rigid hard recoil. The psychological make-up/preparedness (training) must also be considered.
Apart from the above aspects, every person has a natural pain-threshold (nerves), and some will be able to endure more than others, before it will start affecting their shooting discipline and results.

Ammunition:

As can be seen from the formula pressure is not part of the equation. Therefore the “peak”-value published in load guides does not really mean anything. However, Ammunition can be assembled (combination) to deliver similar velocities = true recoil, with a pressure impulse which can be slightly altered, having the same total impulse, but over a slightly longer time base. These changes can them be perceived as being “softer”. However, we must again stress the fact that the comparison must always be fair and clinical (apples with apples) re velocity. A proper average can really only be determined over a 10 and 20 round test, fired at different time’s, and days, to include day to day variation etc.
This can be achieved by altering any one of the components in the above ammunition “subsystem”, which comprises of the primer, case/hull, wad, powder/burn-rate and the weight of the shot.
This effect is the result of the combination and never one of the components only. This can only be properly done by thorough experimentation with different primer/s, cases, crimp /assembly methodology (see section below), wad design/s /make, wad tension (assembly), and the weight the shot.

Important things to remember and do to discern what loads are softer and the importance of measuring the velocity:

Do not assume the velocity for your conditions is the same as the published data, even if you are duplicating the exact same combination re components i.e. the case/hull, powder type, powder charge, shot weight etc as recommended by any load guide.
This real difference can only be determined by actually measuring the velocity, for the conditions, components and weapon system as used by the reloader/shooter.
When loads are compared and the level of “perceived-recoil” has been determined for a particular shooter, have the velocity measured to confirm that the softer load are actually not merely a slower velocity. Since the formula for Kinetic Energy is half the mass x velocity squared, the shooter will detect a difference in recoil within a few feet per second. Especially the seasoned professional shooters that have developed an above average sensitivity and ability to sense variations between “loads”.

SHOTSHELL DATA

Background and basic Fundamentals.

The fundamental difference between a shotshell cartridge and a typical centre fire rifle cartridge is, that the efficiency of the shotshell cartridge is 100% dependant on the round itself. By this we mean that all the “resistive forces” must be generated within the confines of the round itself. No assistance is provided by the gun.
The reason for this is that the Maximum Peak Pressure is reached long before the base of the shot/wad assembly has left the case. (In the case of a CF rifle cartridge, the peak pressure is achieved when the bullet is engraved, therefore the large contribution, as a result of leade/free-bore dimensions on the combustion process. (i.e. bullet/bore interface fit, bullet hardness, bearing surface etc).
The reason for this is that the critical engraving force which is so important to the dynamic combustion process present in a CF rifle caliber is totally absent in a shotgun.
Shotgun and typical straight-case handgun calibers are actually basically the same in their fundamental ratios and dynamics. A shotgun can be described as an oversize low-pressure handgun caliber. That’s why the same powders are used in shotgun and handgun calibers.
This means that the efficiency re ignition and the subsequent increase in pressure, is totally controlled by the integral configuration and assembly of the round itself. These constitute the main inertial mass (shot mass), the initial internal volume (wad design), the dynamic collapse (primary expansion) of the internal volume (collapsible section of the wad), plus the displacing of the internal assembly and the unfolding of the fold/crimp (secondary/Final expansion).
The way this COMBINATION interacts, will determine the efficiency Pressure impulse (Profile and time-base) and the Peak-pressure vs Velocity ratio (P/V). The resistive force, presented by friction in a shotgun is negligible.


Crimping: (Assembly)

This is certainly one of the most important aspects of the Shotshell reloading process.
The influence of crimp on the ballistics is often ignored, and assumed to be of lesser importance than primers and wad make/design.
The fact is that the effect of Crimp-strength can totally overshadow the influence of the other components and parameters. This is controlled by the following:

Crimp depth: Depth setting on crimping machine.
Condition of the case: Material hardness resilience.
Wad: Length, Stiffness and rigidity/flexibility of collapsible section.
Wad Tension: Pre-tension/compression setting on crimping machine.

Some reloader’s want to extend case life and they tend to crimp as shallow as possible, and with the least crimp strength possible. However, this practice can be problematic if the improper combination of primer, case, wad and powder is used. Example: If a “soft” combination is used, it can lead to underperformance, or in extreme cases, bloopers. It is always wise to use a strong a crimp as possible, for any particular load/combination.

Primers:

It is well known that different primers deliver different energy levels. The way each company manufacturers and formulates the chemical composition, and configures the hardware (metallic) parts of the primer, all plays a major role in how the primer will deliver the energy to the powder.
Again, we must emphasize that it’s all about the particular combination, and whether a change in primer will show a difference in ballistics.
Shotgun primers are very sensitive to firing pin energy. This is due to the proportionally large displacement/deformation that must take place when the primer’s cup is crushed.
It is extremely difficult to pin the data down to a standard one load, where primer X will always deliver higher performances than Primer Z. AAC developed our loads using a standard typical primer. If all conditions are the same, the difference between primers will rarely be dangerous. It is obvious that if the load one is using, are already running at the maximum level with primer X, it would be unwise to merely change the primer and continue loading. This is also true for any change in component or procedure.
Once any component or procedure is changed, the combination will react differently. The proper way to proceed is to reduce the load by about 0.5grain to 0.7grains, and then confirm the performance by measuring the velocity or sensing the recoil/flight time. The reloader can then adjust back to the same velocity/recoil level, by increasing or decreasing the charge mass, or by adjusting to a stiffer softer wad or decreasing or increasing the crimp.

Volumetric loading/dispensing:

Always confirm the “thrown weight’ from any bushing, bar etc on a scale.
There are just too many variables that can influence volumetric measuring, of powder.
These are:
The physical action with which the loading machine is operated.
The atmospheric conditions especially Relative Humidity (RH). This is especially true of single base powders which are very hygroscopic. AAC powders S1000 and S1250 are single base powders; N100 is a double base powder.

Johan Loubser
Ballistician

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:17 pm 
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Trebelplink. Many shotgun powders also are used in pistol reloading. I'm not 100% sure, but most shotshell powders are either flake or flattened ball powders. Many of the rifle powders are spherical or cylindrical in shape. I'm thinking this makes a difference on ignition and it might make them unsuitable for shotshells. I've occasionally had the same thought you did when looking at the burn rate chart and seeing many powders that have nearly the same burn rate but knowing some are used for shotshells and others for rifle, my mind went back quickly to why I was looking at the burn rate chart to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:20 pm 
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How would you know? You are so full of it!! Not you Nebs.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:35 pm 
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I use pistol powder for 12gauge. Im in europe.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:37 pm 
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geometric wrote:
How would you know? You are so full of it!! Not you Nebs.
To my mind, nothing in Randy's post answered the OP's question....

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:17 pm 
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trebleplink wrote:
with shotshell - do primers flatten? Do you chronograph them?


Primers don't flatten at shotgun pressures.

Some of us use a chrono.

Most rifle powders are too slow for shotguns. You are not able to substitute powders regardless of how they fall on a chart.

A lot of pistol powders are used for shotgun loads. Most of us load more than a single gauge or load.

Viht powders are more expensive than any other brand. Part of reloading shotshells is economics. There is nothing that Viht produces that would turn a shotgunners head due to pricing.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:33 pm 
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There are actually a lot of "handgun" loads for "shotgun" powders and vice versa. On Alliant's website it lists loads for five shotgun gauges and four handgun calibers for Herco. Red Dot, American Select, Unique are a few more that come to mind as being dual purpose. Probably more.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:11 pm 
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There are a LOT of powders that serve both shotgun and pistol shooters: Universal, Unique, Clays, all of the "dots" and the IMR "dots", 296, LilGun, promo and a host of others

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:57 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
There are a LOT of powders that serve both shotgun and pistol shooters: Universal, Unique, Clays, all of the "dots" and the IMR "dots", 296, LilGun, promo and a host of others


Pretty much everything in the top 40% of the burn chart is appropriate for shotshell and pistol. Now obviously WHICH shotshell and pistol rounds they are appropriate for varies with the burn rate. Some of those are even appropriate for certain rifle cartridges as well, such as 296 for 30 carbine.

Whether the powder manufacturer or another entity deemed it worthwhile to work up data, that's a completely different scenario. 231 likely falls in a gap where it COULD work, but be a poor choice for 12ga (being too slow and too low pressure unless loading heavy magnum loads) and a poor choice for 20ga (being too fast and too high pressure), but I'll bet a load could be developed if someone really wanted to. Very few people use vihtavuori powder period, so I can't see why anyone would bother developing loads for it. Looking at the burn chart, 330 looks like it would fall in the range that would be appropriate for magnum 20ga and 28ga loads, and marginal for target loads, same ballpark as Herco, again a proverbial no-mans land that practically nobody is interested in.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that powders can be more accurately be placed in "straight wall" and "non-straight wall" categories. Straight wall covering all shotshells, all pistols, and a handful of rifles. Non-straight wall covering everything else, basically the remainder of the rifles. There is some overlap, such as longing EXTREMELY light plinking rifle loads (I think I remember reading that you can load cast bullets in 30-06 at very low velocity with Unique).

trebleplink wrote:
And I don't know how to judge how close I am to a max charge with shotshell - do primers flatten?


There is one way for a shotshell reloader to know when they have gone overpressure (without employing the services of someone that owns a pressure gun), and that's when the gun disintegrates in their hands. Beyond that, the max charge is what is printed in the manual.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:54 pm 
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When I first started loading 410 shells, I was using 2400, and now load 300-MP, both pistol powders.

I occasionally load some 44 mag, and use Red Dot to load them, since I always have plenty on hand. (I actually load them pretty soft, to make shooting the beast more enjoyable.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:36 am 
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Hmmmm? We burn quite a bit of VV powder in these parts. Not in shotguns but in rifles and pistols. The performance is worth the extra for me. I have lots of powder, many different brands and numbers and in several applications VV is THE powder of choice, damn the cost!

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:21 am 
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Easy solve, and stop looking gun powder as pistol, shotgun, or center fire rifle gun powder's.

Instead, look at the burn rate of the powders, and depending on the load, gauge, cartilage/shell of volume, verses load weight and to maintain the working pressure of the load, the power type needed, will fall into a burn rate of powder.

https://www.eabco.com/BurnRates20152016.pdf

So in 12, Clays would be the mean burn rate for say a 1-1/8 load at 1200fps, unique in 20 at 7/8oz at 1200fps as well as 29 gauge with 3/4oz load at 1200fps, and 296 would be for 410 with 1/2oz loads to maintain the lower working pressures of these loads.

In hand gun and center fire, you may have higher working pressures, but the same run can apply.

I bring this up, since if can find a publish load for something, then you can take a look at the burn rate charts to see what others powders around the same burn rate can be used; once you look up there publish data for the amount of power to use, using that powder isntead.

As for pistol, if you are loading in 44 mag that has a higher working pressure, then pretty much every powder that can be used for all shotgun gauges, can be used in that round to reload as well. You have to watch working pressure verses speeds that the powder amount is going to produce, but all can be used. Clays will produce the slowest of loads at the standard working pressure since it has a faster burn rate, while 296 with it slower burn rate will produce the higher of speeds at working pressurizes instead.

And again, work with the publish data of the loads, for any gun powder that you will using, and that is in the correct burn rate range to start with.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:42 am 
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Thanks all. Sort of reinforces my understanding of burn rates.

Shooting .40 for IPSC competition, it was clear that the faster powders created least felt recoil. The best theory supporting this observation is that the burn is more complete, so less leftover gas to jet out of the muzzle after the bullet departed.

VV320 is very popular. Some used VV310, or even Clays, BUT, the pressure peak limited the fast powders - some of those loads were marginally dangerous. VV powders are expensive, but produce less of a smoke cloud to see through.

It still seems odd to me that W231 isn't used (that I can see) for shotshells. However, it would seem safe to substitute it for Clays ...?


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:18 am 
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Burnt Powder wrote:
Hmmmm? We burn quite a bit of VV powder in these parts. Not in shotguns but in rifles and pistols. The performance is worth the extra for me. I have lots of powder, many different brands and numbers and in several applications VV is THE powder of choice, damn the cost!

BP


That is interesting. In my circles I've never heard of anyone using it for anything, and I think it's only been sold at maybe one or two stores I've ever been to (maybe Cabelas and Fin Feather Fur in OH). Maybe it's a regional thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:33 am 
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Quote:
It still seems odd to me that W231 isn't used (that I can see) for shotshells. However, it would seem safe to substitute it for Clays ...?


IMO it would be a safe sub for clays at the same grain weight but your velocity would be lower, possibly much lower. To get the same velocity as Clays in a 12 ga will require more 231 because of it's slower speed. Shotguns unlike pistols use a lot of powder for each shot so economics come into play. There is no advantage to using 231 over Clays that I'm aware of and certainly an economic disadvantage. If all I had was 231 and no other powder was available I'm sure I could come up with a safe 1200 fps 1 1/8 or 1 oz. 12 ga. load, but I don't have to.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:32 pm 
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"Shotgun primers don't flatten------."
The general consensus is there are no reliable signs of pressure in shotgun shells. I don't know of anything that would cause me to doubt that statement, however they do SOMETIMES flatten & also crater. I don't know if this is a sign of anything other than a soft primer but it does make me wonder at times!


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:43 pm 
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trebleplink wrote:
VV320 is very popular. Some used VV310, or even Clays, BUT, the pressure peak limited the fast powders - some of those loads were marginally dangerous. VV powders are expensive, but produce less of a smoke cloud to see through.



Yes, and no, all depends on the load. Hence was a time that MPF was 175, and where N320 (3n22) was king for the 40. With MPF dropped down to 165 in the states, and 170 abroad, burn rates like clay is not a bad thing in general. The problem with clay powder is it's a flake powder, and does not meter even close to that of N320 or N310 instead through a dispenser on a progressive machine. As for spherical powder, meters like a dream through most dispensers, but spherical powder is harder to ignite, so going the wrong way with needing a hotter primer to ignite it instead.

So it not just burn rate, but the type of powder on how it's going to ignite and volume fill, as well how its going to meter that makes it a winner to start with.

As for win powders in shotgun loads, since it's a very dense spherical powder, the glitch is finding the longer needed wad (short of 410 loads) to make it work in a load isntead (get the fill with top of shot level to the bottom of the fold crimp line to get the ideal crimp in the end).


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:23 am 
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700X. Great for pistol and shotshell in 12 gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not pistol or rifle powders?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:44 pm 
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Due to design, shotguns shoot a very heavy load of shot compared to a rifle, (437 gr. in an ounce, compared to usual bullet weights of 50 to 200. gr.) but are limited to a much lower safe pressure (10-12 Kpsi for shotgun, 40-60 Kpsi for a rifle). Rifles also have metallic cases, while shotguns have plastic or paper cases which don't have the same strength or properties. These are reasons enough to require powders with different burning characteristics for safe and optimal shooting.



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