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 Post subject: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
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Hi team

This is a head scratcher. I am working on card and fibre loads for 12g trap. Old style AA hulls. Patterns are great BUT the hulls are stretching down one side (from both barrels) and flattening out the crimp.

Ideas?




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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
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What components are you using?

Can you take a picture of the hulls from a different angle to show the stretching and the flat crimp.

Can you take a picture of the card and fiber wads you are using?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:10 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 217
This an old gun (like 1930s or earlier)? I ask because there would be a slight chance that the old short chamber length could be causing this (due to the crimp unfolding into the forcing cone instead of the chamber itself).

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Gunnison
I had that exact thing happen when I reloaded 28 ga. CF Winchester hulls. They would stretch up to 1/8" on one side, curve the hull slightly and iron out the crimp there. Never did figure out why and gave up the idea of reloading with card and fiber wads. I started reloading 20 ga. in the early '60s and never had that happen in any paper or plastic hull during those years.


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:45 pm 
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I am going to hazard a guess before we find out what wads the OP is using.

The CF hulls are very small in diameter in the area where the wad is seated on the powder. IF you use an actual 12 gauge nitro card and seat it on the powder I will bet that before the card moves there is enough 'stiction' between the nitro card and the hull wall to actually stretch the compression formed hull. I will also guess that the card/fiber wads are not exiting the hull square to the bore and it irons out one side of the hull mouth.

At the point where you seat the wad on the powder a AA CF 12 gauge hull is about 0.685". A 12 gauge nitro card is 0.740"

CF hulls were not designed for card wads.

I would try a 14 gauge nitro card and see what happens. I believe the diameter is 0.703". I would continue to use a 12 gauge fiber wad.

I bet the CF hull is the only hull this will happen in, because of the way it was made and the material used. Compression forming is different than injection molding, so I bet it wouldn't happen with a Remington STS/Nitro/Gun Club hull.

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aka Mr. Tactful.
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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
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Hi Guys.

Shotgun is SKS605 o/u in good condition. Chambers are 2 3/4 inch.

Have had the same issue with straight wall hulls also. Never happens when using a plastic wad.

Photos as requested. Column from L-R: Nitro card, fibre wad edge lubed with lanolin, 2 x card wads, cork, 7/8 oz of 8 shot to top off.


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 pm 
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Do the straight wall hulls curve and stretch or just 'flatten' at the crimp?

Glad you sent the picture. The crimp area is very typical when using card and fiber wads.

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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:09 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Do the straight wall hulls curve and stretch or just 'flatten' at the crimp?

Glad you sent the picture. The crimp area is very typical when using card and fiber wads.


The straight wall hulls flatten out the same and with similar stretching. I have put two more test loads together and will shoot them tomorrow and report more. Straight wall hulls this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:36 pm 
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You got me!! No idea on the stretching. Have never had it happen on any card and fiber load I have tried.

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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 217
An over-powder gas seal (from BPI) may work better than the nitro card in that hull. Lots more height to keep it stable in the hull instead of twisting sideways. Better seal, too. But I've never tried them.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
I loaded a lot of card & fiber wads in AACF hulls in the 60's. I won't swear they didn't stretch but if they did, I didn't notice or pay any attention to it. I was a confused teenager back then. My wife thinks I'm still confused but we get along great anyway. I always use a gas seal of some kind in conjunction with fiber wads. They are more efficient if nothing else. I also use the BPI gas seals. I think Precision sells the same wad. The only thing I load now without a plastic gas seal is my Pedersoli SXS 10 ga.. They said it was an 11 ga. but a plastic 10 ga. wad will fit the bore.


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:43 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:46 am
Posts: 18
Have you tried firing these reloads from a different gun ? And if so, did the fired cases show similar wall stretch and mouth changes ?
On a different tack, are the CF and SW hulls being reloaded on the same reloader ? ... and is there any sign of hull wall changes when comparing pre- and post- loading?
And on yet another tack, using the same wadding, does this only happen with 7/8 oz loads compared to 1oz or 1 1/16 oz?
Good luck in finding the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 99
Location: NE South Dakota
harkom wrote:
Have you tried firing these reloads from a different gun ? And if so, did the fired cases show similar wall stretch and mouth changes ?
On a different tack, are the CF and SW hulls being reloaded on the same reloader ? ... and is there any sign of hull wall changes when comparing pre- and post- loading?
And on yet another tack, using the same wadding, does this only happen with 7/8 oz loads compared to 1oz or 1 1/16 oz?
Good luck in finding the answer.


This here, try another gun first to possibly eliminate the simplest option, the gun.

Then go on to the other options.


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
Posts: 5
I am only experimenting with 7/8oz loads presently. Today I shot some more.

Both top and bottom barrels flatten the crimp on the top of the barrel only. I oriented hulls to monitor. The AA hulls shot today were once fired so I can be sure of 'wear'. They actually showed little sign of stretching but still ironed out the crimp on the top. That said, the crimp reformed just fine on the MEC. The SW hulls stretched a little more than the AA and the crimped flatten also.

I am starting to think it is a factor of how many times the hull has been fired.

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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:52 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:32 am
Posts: 28
Location: NSW, Australia
G'day mate,

For what it's worth, I've used quite a few factory Eley Felt Wad 28g 9's (not that I think the shot size would matter) and every shell comes out with the crimp pretty much ironed out.

My reloads with the petals cut off the wad (to emulate a felt wad) do the same thing, so I'm guessing that part of the equation is par for the course.

And as you mentioned, they crimp again no probs.

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:21 am 
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Location: Annapolis, MD
Next time you shoot those hulls, be careful and put the stretched sides down in the chamber, to even out the stretching.

And, building those wad columns must really slow down the reloading process.

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 Post subject: Re: Stretching
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:19 am
Posts: 152
It has been my experience that the stretching you describe and subsequent ironing out of the crimp occures anytime I reload plastic hulls w/card & fibre wads. That is using published recipes deemed safe for plastic wads used in those hulls, but substituting the card & fire wads rather than plastic.

I found it a bit scary, wondering what the pressuers being generated were w/o ever having any of them tested, so I stopped the practice out of caution.

Its my opinin that those nitro card wads w/fibre wad above them obturate/seal too well to the rough unner surface of plastic hulls and some of them, if you look or are monitoring the inner hull's surface, get much rougher w/each firing. I'd speculate the wad's movement is even delayed a nanosecond over what it would have been against a smooth inner hull surface as it is compressed and the fibre expands getting a momentary grip on that rough surface before it clears the hull and is into the bore's forcing cone area. Its safe to assume that the temps involved are above the plastic's melting point as well. Used to be on paper hulls you got 'pin holes' just above the brass after 2~3 reloads from where the combustion temps had burned thru the wall, but the inner hull's wall stayed smooth where the wad was.

I've shot some high brass European rounds loaded to silly velocity levels for helice that would sometimes cut off the paper tube on the first firing leaving you to extract it w/a finger before the next round could be chambered!! None of the few I had do that turned into 'whistlers', but they were loaded w/plastic wads; had they been loaded w/card & fibre wads, I expect they would have.




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