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 Post subject: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:14 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:07 pm
Posts: 6
Hi all,
I have been creating a load of bismuth for ducks that uses a Fiocchi Hull and Rem RP 12 wad. I made this based on load data off of Hodgdon's website, but I have noticed that there is some powder migration to the sides of the wads. They create absolutely stellar patterns, so would really like to use them for ducks this year. What are some thoughts this combo?

I am also roll crimping them with the clear overshot discs from gaep and a BPI roll crimper. Any advice on that is appreciated as well.




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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:04 pm 
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Creating a load? Do you not follow a tested recipe?
Powder migration is because your wad is not a good fit. The Fiocchi hull is a straight wall hull, and the Remington wad is for a tapered hull.

By the way, welcome to shotgunworld.

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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:07 pm
Posts: 6
Bob,
The load is listed both on the hodgdon website as well as the Lyman #5 manual. So I guess creating a load wasn’t the best choice of words. I guess I’m just confused as to why they would both have a load with a wad that’s an improper fit? And I want it to work because I am getting amazing patterns with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:24 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4807
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
So when did the RP wad become a tapered wall wad ? The Remington Power Piston wads were around before Remington ever made a tapered wall hull! It helps if the wad fits tight but just because you have a wad that is a theoretical straight wall wad doesn't mean you won't get powder migration in a straight wall hull or any hull. I would load it regardless if you are getting great patterns but one thing that can cause the migration is air being forced around the wad, taking a little powder with it. Try seating the wad slowly or slower & see if that helps. A roll crimp usually produces lower pressure so if the data calls for a folded crimp, you may be getting less chamber pressure. How much is hard to say. Since you are getting good patterns, I wouldn't worry about it too much as long as you are getting good ignition & the shot penetration is up to snuff. If you suspect a problem you can compare it to lead in news paper or whatever (if you don't have a chronograph), it should be close to the same as lead but not quite as much as a rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:29 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2194
Location: Attica, Mi
Go ahead and shoot em. In my opinion Precision Reloading makes a better roll crimper at less the cost. Theirs has more pins - BPIs only has one roll pin.

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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:38 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4807
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Not that it is going to matter at this point but just for curiosity's sake. Does the data you have call for a roll crimp or did you just decide you wanted to roll crimp it? Ditto to the welcome to ShotgunWorld! Bismuth is a great duck load, IMHO.
In defense of Bob, you did say you are "creating a load". That was a bit misleading!


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:45 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:07 pm
Posts: 6
No the recipes call for a fold crimp, but I have to roll crimp because it always it to feed much better in my semi auto since it tapers the shells. I only have a mec 600 jr press which doesn’t taper the hulls on the fold crimp and it causes cycling issues.

But like you said, it was misleading that was my mistake! I did not “create” this load by any means. It is all published load data.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:58 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
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Put an overpowder card under the plastic wad. It'll stop the powder migration. None of the hodgdonreloading.com recipes specify roll crimp. Roll crimping will reduce pressures slightly.

Curious, are you going Longshot in a 3" Fiocchi hull or the 2-3/4" Clays recipe?


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:07 pm
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I’m doing a longshot in a 2 3/4” Fiocchi hull. It has given me great results! I’ll put a picture of some patterns below.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3593
Location: UK, England, Britain
There are many dedicated wads for those hulls. I used some and converted them to bismuth and had them tested. I actually used most nontox. But couldnt find hw15-18. To roll crimp you need 1/4" to have a neat rto that has little chance of collapsing. I use an antique reloader. So you could theoretically fit a 3" load in a 2,3/4" +rto.
Ive seen data like that.
I would never ever reduce the collapsable section of the loads. Ie 1.5 oz wads have less colapse section than 1oz.
But regardless of anything. Id get decent data. Or have any load tested. Its a blanket response. But its senseible.

There are loads out there that dont fit but are safe and go bang.

Bismuth is 0.88 the density of lead.
In europe speake. If i had a wad that holds 44grams of lead. It will hold 38grams of bismuth. Same volume. Its just a sneeze below 1.5oz.

I have reloaded 1,1/8oz homebrewed (tested) bismuth out of a mec sizemaster using the 1,1/4oz lead bar. And printed about 100shells an hour rate (i printed multiple loads).


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4807
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
The first thing I thought of was adding a card wad under the plastic wad, like Hal4son suggested but it is not part of the data & I don't know if it would affect the pattern or pressure. I suspect it would be fine but assuming things is how you get in trouble with reloading!


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:16 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 543
There are a few really good tested recipes for Bismuth using Longshot powder in Tapered
hulls as well as Straight walled hulls each use their corresponding wads column with a obturation
skirt to fit the hull used . This makes for a efficient burn of the powder and builds a proper psi .
with a consistent S.D. in velocity !


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:49 pm 
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abell5- That pattern looks terrific. I do wonder about the listed powder charge on your pattern. 31.9 gr of Longshot is a couple grains stiffer than anything I'm seeing listed on hodgdonreloading.com or in Lyman 5th for either 2-3/4 or 3" Fiocchi hulls.

Can you verify the page # in Lymans and the shot weight for your load?


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:07 pm
Posts: 6
I’m using 1 1/4 oz loads of bismuth. The 31.9 grains of longshot is what hodgdon has listed on their website for 1400 FPS with the rem rp12 wad.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
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*deleted erroneous data


Last edited by Hal4son on Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:07 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 543
A nice Bismuth load in a Rem STS hull with a Win 209 , 29.7 Longshot ,WAA12R , 1 1/4 oz
of #4's kills Ducks with authority !
Or
You can try a FGM hull , Win 209, 29.5 Longshot under a 12S4 with 1 1/8 oz of #4's with
10 grs of PSB Buffer ?

Bismuth with 6% Tin is the Poor mans hevishot


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:34 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3593
Location: UK, England, Britain
is the hulls labeled bismuth in the data? hulls labelled as bismuth can be reloaded with anything.

is the shot type labeled as bismuth ?

just trying to check.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:20 am 
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Entered it again this morning in hodgdonreloading.com and your loading came right up with a FIO616 primer. Not sure why it didn't work for me yesterday. Obviously operator error.

Screen shot below.


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:21 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 4807
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
With that hot a load, what are you worried about?? You're getting great patterns, just shoot it! I like my velocity a little higher with bismuth than lead because it is a little less dense but since my lead loads never exceed 1200 fps., 1300 to 1350 fps. is a little higher. I'm not sure it makes any difference. I don't think you have to worry about the load being too anemic from losing a few grains of powder. A roll crimp can reduce pressure 1000 psi or more in some cases. That could be part of the reason you are getting good patterns. Go shoot some ducks!!


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 Post subject: Re: Wad Selection And Roll Crimping
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:36 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3593
Location: UK, England, Britain
with bismuth and other shot types i tend to use bigger shot, to near equal weight.

so bismuth, niceshot go up one compared to lead (1250 minimum).
itx10 -go up 2 shotsizes compared to lead.
steel - go up 3 sizes.
power shot t12 go down one size.

1,1/4 oz loads ish. or 1,1/8oz

4-5 for duck in lead sizes
#2 minimum for geese in lead sizes.
(i have not used lead on wildfowl. these are the minimum size required in lead shotsizes that i compare nontoxic shot too.)

*i`ve never used lead on waterfowl*

also i reload cheap steel, 7/8oz steel, 1350fps #2 or #bb using mec 1,1/4oz lead bar. in a 3" with target powder !
cheap-cheap. like a budgie.




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