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 Post subject: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:17 am 
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I had a goto 1oz load of 18.5 grs Red Dot with Win 209 primer and AA hull with the HS wad and liked it. I came into a ton of Rem GN hulls, and appreciate the extra volume, so decided to load them up. I had a bag of tgt 8's for the above mix and the load seemed great. But I have a boatload of DRXL-1 and CB1100-12 wads and a couple cases of Win209 primers. Plug the Win209 and Rem hull into the Alliant site with RedDot and you get one usable wad, the R12L at some over the top charge and velocity. Now if I switch to the Rem 209P and the whole world opens up. But now it opens up questions:

1) If I look at data for wads that are all supposed to be ballistically equivalent, CB1100-12, DRXL-1, Jammer XL-1, Purple PC and AA12SL, the data is all over the place with respects to pressure -- but not so much with velocity. How can that be if those wads are ballistically equivalent?

2) Why can I use a CB1100-12 in the Win AA hull with 18.5 grs of Red Dot and the Win 209 and it's very low pressure, but put that same charge into the Rem hull with the Rem 209P and the pressure is some 2000 LUP HIGHER when the Rem hull is volumetrically larger AND supposedly the Rem209 is a milder brissance primer?

3) The whole nit for me here is I went ahead and loaded up about 2000 Rem GN hulls, thinking I was safe swapping in a Win 209 with my mid-level 18.5 grs RedDot charge using the DRXL-1 because it looked like I'd be "okay" for the AA12SL/CB1100-12, but later see the DRXL-1 data looks questionable -- so now I am wondering if I've totally effed up and exceeded a prudent limit, and so now that prudence dictates I cut them all open and recover the shot and powder and toss the hulls and primers?

Thanks in advance for your input,



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Last edited by JacksBack on Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:27 am 
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I can't answer your questions, but before I cut open 2K shells and ditched a bunch of valuable components, I'd send off a sample to Precision Reloading for testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:33 am 
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@ Painter -- thank you, that's an excellent idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:42 am 
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I don't know but have you shot any of those loads? All I can do is guess but I have a hard time believing 18.5 grains of red dot would create a dangerous load with 1 oz. of shot & any sane wad/hull/primer combination!


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:06 am 
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Yes I have shot them and they seem fine and look fine. Velocity over my chrono is a pretty consistent 1235 FPS. So while I cannot imagine they are unsafe, I don't actually know that. The larger issue is the data on the Alliant site shows some similar velocities at over 10K pressures, hence my concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:11 am 
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I recently sent some 28 gauge loads off for testing, and what I learned is that some of the things we assume about components don't actually work that way when assembled as a cartridge.

A common assumption is that a Fed 209A primer is one of the hottest, but in the particular load pressures were surprisingly low but the ES, and SD, were much better than a load with a supposedly milder Win 209 that tested at higher pressures and only a half grain more powder.

You just can't tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:20 am 
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geometric wrote:
I don't know but have you shot any of those loads? All I can do is guess but I have a hard time believing 18.5 grains of red dot would create a dangerous load with 1 oz. of shot & any sane wad/hull/primer combination!

If it is running 1235 as the OP states, I agree there isn't anything to worry about.

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Last edited by oneounceload on Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:47 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
geometric wrote:
I don't know but have you shot any of those loads? All I can do is guess but I have a hard time believing 18.5 grains of red dot would create a dangerous load with 1 oz. of shot & any sane wad/hull/primer combination!

If it is running 1235 as the OP states, I agree there is anything to worry about.


Agree as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:21 pm 
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I agree as well! Yes, in reloading, things often don't go as we think they should. Ask me how I know! The only way to find out is get it pressure tested or call the source of the data that says it is 12000 psi & ask if that is a miss print. Who's data says it is 12000+ psi? Am I misunderstanding something? Are you using some sort of online ballistic calculator? I don't think anybody would publish data with a pressure that high. I am looking at the Alliant Data site & it is showing 19.7 gr. of RD in the Remington hull & 209P primer at 1310 fps & 9400 psi with the CB 1100-12 WAD & 1 oz. of shot. 18.7 gr. gives you 8800 psi. Am I reading something wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:29 pm 
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@ geometric, yes but then there's a similar load of 19.5 grs RedDot with the Rem 209P, AA12SL, DRXL-1, or Jammer XL-1 generating just 1250 FPS but now at 10,100 lup; moreover, there's a load right above the one you quoted that gets to the same 1250 FPS as the above load with only 18.7 grs of RedDot and the CB1100-12 wad... How can these numbers be if all these wads are ballistically identical?

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Last edited by JacksBack on Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:29 pm 
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[quote="JacksBack] Rem GN hulls[/quote]

What is a Rem GN hull?


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:33 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
[quote="JacksBack] Rem GN hulls[/quote]

What is a Rem GN hull?[/quote]


Gold Nitro, same as STS only gold in color.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:01 pm 
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VERY similar 1 ounce load compared to what I load in the Rem Nitro hull. (18.2 grains Red, CB8100 wad, Win209 primer, 1 ounce shot) I'm not concerned by load data that varies quite a bit for similar loads, if the load itself shoots well. Practically speaking, I think you are golden. But a pressure check will never hurt, and will reduce your concerns, I would imagine. I have used the CB1100 and the Windjammer II wad in this load, too, and get almost same performance.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:30 pm 
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JacksBack,

The deal with clone/equivalent wads is......they are not equivalent, weren't ever meant to be and that isn't what the manufacturer's are saying.

Claybuster calls them clone wads and those wads can be used with OEM wad data. Same with Downrange. This means they are safe with using OEM wad data, that doesn't mean you can expect exact ballistics.


Pressure, honestly, doesn't mean s***. As long as the chamber pressure is under SAAMI MAP you are good. 1,000 PSI +/- from the OEM wad pressure isn't worth a look, although those among us looking for perfection get their panties in a twist over it.

Use the wads and forget the BS.

Alliant's advice if you are using hotter primers than the ones listed to, is to drop 1/2 grain less powder......more of a feel good than a real change, but it appeases the 6" between the ears.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:00 pm 
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I think I must have read your post wrong. I thought you were talking about 12000+ psi. 2000 lup is not 2000 psi, BTW. There is no correlation between LUP & PSI. There is a rule of guess that psi will run about 1000 psi above lup but that is not reliable. I basically agree with Dogchaser but like to err on the side of safety anyway!


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:08 am 
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In my Alliant handbook they ONLY list PSI, not LUP. Where are you getting the data with LUP for pressure ? Now Hodgdons will sometimes list LUP, for some God unknown reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:57 am 
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I think they sometimes list LUP because it is old data tested with the LUP system!


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:01 am 
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Sorry, I assumed LUP on the Aliant site, a hold over from the old Lyman manual when I started reloading 40 years ago --

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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:19 pm 
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Jack, just curious...are you going to just shoot these loads based on the posts here from some experienced re-loaders, or are you going to have them tested to satisfy your curiosity?


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 Post subject: Re: Load data conundrums
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:31 pm 
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painter* wrote:
Jack, just curious...are you going to just shoot these loads based on the posts here from some experienced re-loaders, or are you going to have them tested to satisfy your curiosity?

The OP said: "but later see the DRXL-1 data looks questionable".

So I have to ask, what does "questionable" mean, and what data is that based off of ?

The data in my Spreadsheet might be a few years old, but Alliant (as usual), only publishes hull-matching primer data, with only a few exceptions.

In the case of 1-oz Red dot loads in GC/STS's, they only post this load with a W209 :

Image

If you select all primers, and then select only CB-1100 wads, and (OEM) WAA12SL and DRXL-1 (which Alliant wrongfully "groups" together with the OEM wad), you get this data:

Image

And if it's the hotter W209 primer you are concerned about (with 18.5 grains and the afformentioned wads), then just look at Alliants data for the Winchester hulls (which even have slightly less internal volume):

Image

My general rule of thumb for 1-oz in taper wall hulls with a medium-strength primer is that 18.5 grains of "any" 1-ounce propellant isn't going to be over pressure.

Sending these in for pressure testing is ill-advised for sure. Just shoot them.

dogchaser37 wrote:
Use the wads and forget the BS.

Alliant's advice if you are using hotter primers than the ones listed to, is to drop 1/2 grain less powder......more of a feel good than a real change, but it appeases the 6" between the ears.

I agree !

LOL, - I'd even be inclined to INCREASE powder by a 1/2 grain in that load, but that's just me. :shock:




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