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 Post subject: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:32 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:02 pm
Posts: 224
I have Gun Clubs Hulls and Red Dot Powder and want to reload 7/8oz loads, but the Load Data on the Alliant website only shows Rem209P Primers. What primer can I use that will be close to Rem 209P Primers?



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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Well, I'm a bit of a risk taker, I load Remington 209P/STS, WW209, Noble, Cheddite, CCI 209, and Fiocchi interchangeable in the 12 ga loads I use. 1200 fps 1 oz loads in 12 ga with various suitable powders. I'm not at the right end of the page and comparable loads with different primers show very little to no significant pressure changes. Pretty much all the replies from Alliant is use the standard primers interchangeable, yes I'm interpolating a bit here, but if you load Federal 209A or CCI Mag, back off a grain or so.

Right now I have mostly Fiocchis and that's what I'd use and never think twice about it!

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:19 pm 
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alfonso_perez wrote:
I have Gun Clubs Hulls and Red Dot Powder and want to reload 7/8oz loads, but the Load Data on the Alliant website only shows Rem209P Primers. What primer can I use that will be close to Rem 209P Primers?


I am not a risk taker. Alliant will give you the options if you call them.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:52 pm
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Location: Grayling, MI
Remington 209P/STS its in the name its the same primer. Thats what Remington says and what Alliant has told me. Its what I use with remington hulls and in this case with Alliants data.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:02 pm 
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Do call Alliant, 800-276-9337, see what they tell you.

My risk is quite minimal based on lots of years of information gathering. That includes lots of information posted here by folks that have called Alliant and posted the reply here.

Were talking pressures of from between 6,800 psi (low end 1,200 fps) to 8,200 psi (High end 1,300 fps) here with 7/8 oz loads.

Do tell us what they say.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:17 pm 
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I had the same issue, talked with Alliant about my particular load and they told me that Winchester was an acceptable swap. BUT that was my load, please do check with them


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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Every time I've checked with Alliant about primer swaps the answer has been: Win. 209 is ok in place of Rem. 209 STS, Fiocchi is ok in place of CCI 209, CCI 209 in ok in place of Win. 209 etc etc etc. And the couple of times I checked about swapping a Federal 209A for a standard primer the answer was "Drop the powder by half a grain."

So when it comes to Alliant target loads in 12 gauge I just go with the above advice. For Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester powders they always have a good selection of loads with various primers.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6403
Location: Eastern Nebraska
I did ask Alliant a couple years ago about Gun Clubs and Red Dot with primer subs. I wanted to use Fios and W209 and suggested maybe dropping the powder charge. They said load as listed, minimal difference. My specific question was on 1 ounce but would be amazed if their answer was any different for 7/8.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:16 pm 
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From what Ben at Alliant has told me is I can swap fed 209a and CCI 209m and don't change anything. CCI 209, win 209, and rem 209p/sts are fine to swap with each other. if using green dot drop half a grain going from win/cci/rem primers up to fed 209a/CCI 209M. Drop 1 grain if using red dot.

If you choose to swap primers around send Ben an email and ask just for your sake. Also look at multiple sources of data and see what they show.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:20 pm 
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alfonso_perez,

The closest to primer to the Rem 209PSTS is the CCI209.

There might be a Euro-cheapo primer that is closer but I am only sure about the American brand primers.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:36 am 
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For 7/8 with red dot, any primer should be fine. It's 3-4 kpsi from the max even with the 1300 fps loads. I use Cheddites in that load with dirty being the only problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:36 am
Posts: 1573
As far as dimensions, the CCI 209 is a pretty close fit to the Remington STS/209P.

I've been cleared by Ben at Alliant to use the CCI209 in place of the Remington STS/209P for 18 gr. Red Dot, CB8100-12, 1oz. #8, 1200 fps, 8700 psi as I didn't want to distort the primer pocket of my Gun Clubs.

Definitely NOT "pooh-poohing" the advice from the experienced reloaders here, but IMO, it's best to check with your powder manufacturer to be absolutely sure. It's a great learning experience and one that you'll likely never forget.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:35 am 
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Burnt Powder wrote:
Well, I'm a bit of a risk taker, I load Remington 209P/STS, WW209, Noble, Cheddite, CCI 209, and Fiocchi interchangeable in the 12 ga loads I use. 1200 fps 1 oz loads in 12 ga with various suitable powders. I'm not at the right end of the page and comparable loads with different primers show very little to no significant pressure changes. Pretty much all the replies from Alliant is use the standard primers interchangeable, yes I'm interpolating a bit here, but if you load Federal 209A or CCI Mag, back off a grain or so.

Right now I have mostly Fiocchis and that's what I'd use and never think twice about it!

BP


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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:02 pm
Posts: 224
I sent an email to Alliant just waiting for an answer. Thanks. I will post the results.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:19 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:23 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Magnolia, AR
Burnt Powder wrote:
Well, I'm a bit of a risk taker, I load Remington 209P/STS, WW209, Noble, Cheddite, CCI 209, and Fiocchi interchangeable in the 12 ga loads I use. 1200 fps 1 oz loads in 12 ga with various suitable powders. I'm not at the right end of the page and comparable loads with different primers show very little to no significant pressure changes. Pretty much all the replies from Alliant is use the standard primers interchangeable, yes I'm interpolating a bit here, but if you load Federal 209A or CCI Mag, back off a grain or so.

Right now I have mostly Fiocchis and that's what I'd use and never think twice about it!

BP

Once again I agree with BP and I add Rio primers to the mix. I'm not loading max loads either. The following is an email from Alliant:

Yes, either primer will work fine. Thanks for your note and have a nice
day.

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:38 PM
To: Alliant Reloading
Subject: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form

When loading shot shells with Red Dot powder, can Remington STS primers
and Winchester 209 primers be interchanged for shot loads of 1, 1 1/8,
and 1 1/4 oz loads?
Thanks


Last edited by oldreloader on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:44 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
I am not a risk taker. Alliant will give you the options if you call them.

And of what practical value would those options be, assuming this quote from your own website is accurate:

"With shotshell chambers varying in length and diameter, exact pressure cannot be predicted. A simple primer change can change pressures by 3000 PSI. My friends at Accurate Powders / Western Powders inform me they have seen 5000 PSI changes just by a primer swap through their test barrels as recorded by radial transducer."

You conclude with this:

"We all like to think of 'pass / go' and 'good / bad.' We also have difficulty accepting that a 'pressure number' is a vague one, contingent on our gun, our ambient conditions, and tolerance stack-up. Wad material variances affect pressure, crimp depth affects pressure, hull basewad variances affect pressure, lot-to-lot powder variances affect pressure, lot-to-lot primer variances affect pressure as well. It is a very vague if interesting number, unknown by most shooters in their guns with any precision, and has no effect on recoil, patterns, and assorted other attributes attempted to be associated to the tiny, fleeting little peak pressure node."

(SOURCE: http://www.randywakeman.com/shotgun_pressures.htm )

Hmmmmmm...

Logically, unless we're all shooting from a specific test barrel, that pretty much tosses all listed pressures and therefore all shotshell reloading recipes into the realm of occult divination, if not an outright crapshoot.

I don't consider myself an unreasonable risk taker either, nor do I ever intend to shoot targets with a transducer-equipped test barrel. However, like Burnt Powder, I know from having loaded and fired tens of thousands of shotgun shells that so long as I avoid maximum listed velocities/pressures the chances of blowing up a modern chamber are virtually nil no matter what brand of standard 209 primer I use. So far, I've never blown up a shotgun.

Following that discipline, my experience has been that shotshells and shotgun chambers are quite forgiving, mostly owing to the generally accepted, though unpublished fact that the Sporting Arms and Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) proof-pressure standards for shotgun chambers are 10-25 percent higher than published maximum service pressures.

Maximum-PSI SAAMI service pressures:

10 gauge 11,000
12 gauge 11,500 (except 3-1/2 in.)
12 gauge 3 1/2 in. 14,000
16 gauge 11,500
20 Gauge 12,000
28 gauge 12,500
.410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500
.410 Bore 3 in. 13,500

For clay target shooting and upland game hunting I see no reason to exceed 1250 fps in any shotshell load, and I use the cheapest 209 primers I can find in such loads, which for about the past 60,000 or so have been Fiocchis and the even more economical Nobel Sports.

Here are a few example price comparisons from Recob's Target Shop:

5,000 Remington R209PSTS - $227.79
5,000 Winchester W209 - $154.59
5,000 CCI CCI209 - $136.99
5,000 Federal F209A - $136.89
5,000 Fiocchi 616/209 - $127.99
5,000 Cheddite CH209 - $125.49
5,000 Nobel Sport 616/209: $109.99

In my view, those are the only differences in primers worth considering so long as you avoid maximum loads, which are usually unnecessary to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:24 am 
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I'm with the majority here. I never load at maximum velocities and have interchangeably used Winchester's, Remington's, CCI-209's, Fiocchi's, and Nobel Sports for years, without much concern what-so-ever.

Over the last 25 some odd years I have loaded and shot over 1/2 million shells, and have had absolutely no problems of any sort.

The only thing I have found noticeable is that the use of Winchester primers in 410 ammo, produces the most consistent velocities of any of the rest. I am of the opinion that Federal 209A's (with the appropriate powder reduction), would do just as well also in the 410's.

Primer swapping, while it needs to be done with some caution, isn't as critical in MODERATE PRESSURE LOADS as some would have you believe.

If in doubt, ask the powder makers Customer Service Desk, and get their recommendation.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:37 am 
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Case wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
I am not a risk taker. Alliant will give you the options if you call them.

And of what practical value would those options be, assuming this quote from your own website is accurate:



It is self-explanatory. You follow recipes to the letter. Allowable changes (in this case, primer) must come from the very same source you relied upon for the load in the first place. No drama and no needless risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:23 am 
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Here's my take.

NOT just talking about target loads.

If you change primers something is going to change. We can all show examples where primer choice may or may not make a big difference.

Use the data, it is a great guideline for actually getting what you are looking for.

Primer changes have never made sense to me, especially with target loads, as there is just so much great target load data out there. WHY?

I do realize that some of this is forced by shortages but, some of it is fueled by being frugal.....I get it but either way you get what you pay for.....as in..... performance you can trust as you have data to back it up or performance that you have no clue about......most swaps, I bet, are never even checked with a chrono.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Primer is closer to Rem 209P
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:48 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
It is self-explanatory. You follow recipes to the letter.

Given the actual delivery variations of volumetric powder and shot measures, it's impossible to follow any load data "to the letter." And you know it is.

RandyWakeman wrote:
Allowable changes (in this case, primer) must come from the very same source you relied upon for the load in the first place.

I'd be glad to if the powder companies bothered to offer data for ALL the established brands of primers that have been available to the American public for years.

They don't, except sporadically, and most offer no data at all for the highly economical Nobel Sport primer. The European Cheddite, Fiocchi and Nobel Sport primers have been available in the United States from all the major component retailers for many years. I've been buying both Fiocchis and Nobel Sports in multiple case lots since they were as low-priced as $16 a thousand. Yet the powder manufacturers basically ignore them.

Why? I have no idea, but I suspect they simply don't care.

The authors of the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook act as if they've never heard of Cheddite, Fiocchi or Nobel Sport primers.

So be it. But in the meantime, I'll continue to keep my reloading costs as low as possible by applying a good many years and tens of thousands of reloads of experience along with sub-maximum load data and the judicious application of common sense.

I have yet to see the first small arms propellant manufacturer name its collection of reloading data "bible" instead of "guide" or "manual."



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