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 Post subject: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Had a recipe from Ron Forsyth's low velocity principle. Searched but no results.

Does anyone know a link to find?

Thanks




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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:36 pm 
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Did you look here?
https://forum.ultimatepheasanthunting.c ... ple.13996/

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:06 pm 
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Thanks-found that but calls for Green Dot-looking for Longshot recipe. Had it in file and now can't find.

Thanks for posting


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:27 am 
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Location: UK, England, Britain
Thats subsonic teratory.

Longshot will do subsonics above 1.5oz payload weight


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:52 am 
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Here's a link to a thread from 2009 that mentions Ron Forsyth and lists a couple of pressure tested Longshot loads with heavy payloads of large shot:
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=177091

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:00 am 
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Thanks to all


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:28 am 
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Location: UK, England, Britain
I make and design subsonics with the exact same formula. The one big problem with subsonics, is they pattern tight. Too tight sometimes. They can hit game very hard. I am an advocate big shot for subs used on game. Atleast up 2 lead sizes.
in UK. Its desirable for this heavyweight, low-fast powder charge to produce low muzzle report for moderated shotguns. To use as little gas as possable and equilibrate ? what little gas Using the silencer. Making and finding data is easy.

One thing i noticed, when this is used, the heavyweight, low-fast powdercharge concept the pressure variance can be larger than normal loads, the powder is being pushed very hard, to give up its energy. It can have an extreme spread. But it can still be safe. just depends how close to the limit, and whether the stats criteria can take it.

I Use a powder like greendot , to do 1,1/2oz subsonics. 12ga 3" .


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:34 am 
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I have been known to get it wrong at times but I believe the main focus of the low velocity principle is to increase range by decreasing velocity. It only works with the larger shot sizes of pellets of decent density, no steel allowed. Minimum shot size with lead is #4, #2 is better. This decrease in velocity is intended to increase pattern density. Obviously, only pellets with sufficient weight & density can maintain the required energy at range.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:06 am 
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Location: UK, England, Britain
geometric wrote:
I have been known to get it wrong at times but I believe the main focus of the low velocity principle is to increase range by decreasing velocity. It only works with the larger shot sizes of pellets of decent density, no steel allowed. Minimum shot size with lead is #4, #2 is better. This decrease in velocity is intended to increase pattern density. Obviously, only pellets with sufficient weight & density can maintain the required energy at range.


I personally think that some where big muzzle blast can kill patterns. To do with the powder or gas at the muzzle. I rarely toot about it because there il little evidence... And i could be wrong


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:35 pm
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Location: England
I have loaded and used a lot of Cookoffs subsonic loads and can testify that they are both extremely effective at reducing sound (as in for use in a moderated 12ga). These are generally inaudible at 100 yards through my hushpower shotgun. The patterns are also extremely tight and when used with lead 3 or 4 shot will despatch good sized rabbits at 55 plus yards.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:24 pm 
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Cheers Graham.

I just never stopped developing them.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:46 pm 
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I have never heard of the 'low velocity principal'. Anyone care to elaborate?

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:58 pm 
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There was an article in the "American Rifleman" about it before the steel era. I don't know when it originated but I think it is quite old. From what I understand, it is based on the belief that low velocity will result in tighter patterns which used with large shot sizes, will result in effective long range loads.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:21 pm 
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Thanks geometric.

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:35 am 
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It does work.
It patterns tight.

A friend did some patterning with a 3rd and 4th party. Some silly huge increase in patterning, uniform too. But patterns were smaller.
Chokes are almost pointless, full choke patterns through sk to mod.
I cant recall properly but the normal pattern were 70-80%. Subs pulled it to high 90s. They were proper impressed.
I remember doing some informal patterning with #4s (same energy as #6 at 30yards) and putting neat patterns on the top right of a paint plate. Both 7.5 normal shell then a #4 in the top. A few guy came over asking, what the x am i shooting? They were real impressed i used 1/4 too.

I tried them out on rabbit clays. I shot ok for me.

They were never designed with range in mind. My technical model was same energy as 1300 mv as #6 ar 40yards


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:28 am 
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I never really looked into it much, but back in the 70s, a friend used to load up all his duck loads that way with one of the Hodgdon HS powders (don't know which powder) and would kill ducks at obscene distance's that I wouldn't even attempt. His standard load was 1 1/4 oz of lubeloy #5 shot. Grave yard dead at 60 yards on mallards. From my experience (watching him use the loads), the principle works just fine. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:52 pm 
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So what I am reading is nothing different than what happens with slightly smaller shot at 1250 fps to 1300 fps.

Different strokes for different folks.....but it all comes down to one simple but skilled exercise....can you center the target with your pattern?

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:22 pm 
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Yea, hitting the bird is pretty basic. Ideally, the pattern should be optimum at the range of the bird but i find it hard to get the ducks to cooperate. There are also a couple other benefits. Reducing the velocity lets you increase the payload & still keep recoil tolerable. I wouldn't want heavy shot charges of large shot for normal 35 yd. shots at ducks. Maybe that would be a good use for the 10 lbs. of original Hevi Shot (12 g/cm^2) that I have?


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:57 pm 
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"The Low Velocity Principle" was the title of a well-written article by Ron Forsyth that was published in American Rifleman, June 1987, pages 26-27,75-77.

The same principle was expounded a couple of decades earlier in an article by E. H. Harrison in American Rifleman, August 1966, pp.42-43, titled "Special Shotshell Loads". The subtitle of that article summarizes what is involved: "There are advantages to increasing the shot load while decreasing the powder charge."

The basic idea can be comprehended quickly by examining some data assembled by Harrison. The following is an excerpt:
Code:
Comparative Ballistics: 12-ga factory magnum shell vs low-velocity handload:
              #2 lead shot
     velocity(fps)          energy per pellet(ft-lbs)  time of flight(sec)
------------------------    ------------------------   -------------------
muzzle 20yds 40yds 60yds    muzzle 20yds 40yds 60yds    20yds 40yds 60yds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1315  1035   855   725    18.6  11.6   7.9   5.7      .052  .116  .192
 1080   910   775   665    12.6   8.9   6.4   4.7      .060  .131  .215
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(data from American Rifleman, August 1966)

A 7½-pound shotgun using a factory load with 1½ oz shot at a muzzle velocity of 1315 fps will have free recoil of about 41 ft-lbs, compared with 27 ft-lbs for a load with the same weight of shot at 1080 fps in the same shotgun. So, for a really significant reduction in recoil, the differences in performance become negligible down range.

Both Harrison and Forsyth point out that the British were more likely to apply the principle because they used lighter shotguns than Americans.

My personal trials of heavy, low-velocity loads for turkey hunting resulted in increased pattern density as well as really noticeable reduction in recoil compared to factory loads.

(The principle resembles a saying, attributed to some native Americans, that I read somewhere about three score years ago: "Little powder, much lead, shoot far, kill dead.")

NOTE: If you track down Forsyth's article, be aware that the first couple of handloads in the data table are for 1¼ oz of shot and not 1½ oz as shown. See the July 1987 issue for this correction.[/i]

Note to OP: The article by Forsyth includes loading recipes only with Green Dot and Unique. The text of the article does not mention Longshot powder. The article was published in 1987. I think Longshot was introduced about 2000 or maybe a couple years later.

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:11 pm 
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Thanks for the replies. I loaded some years ago 1 3/8 oz that I thought used longshot, but guess I was wrong.
BTW, it was only around 1050 fps but killed birds dead at longer distances than others shooting fast loads.




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