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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:10 pm 
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What a crock!. Low velocity principle? It's necessary to keep the pressures below the max with shot charges that heavy. And the large shot sizes make up for the low velocity in terms of down range pellet energy.



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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:38 am 
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Nebs wrote:
What a crock!. Low velocity principle? It's necessary to keep the pressures below the max with shot charges that heavy. And the large shot sizes make up for the low velocity in terms of down range pellet energy.


whats the crock?

its just a different design of shell.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:32 am 
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I think we are being confronted by a self described 'expert' who has spent more time on a keyboard than actually shooting clays or game w/a shotgun that mostly regurgitates what others have written and not always accurately. In fact, it is necessary to keep pressures within established limits regardless of shot load. And yes, larger shot size can produce adequate lethality at extended ranges w/o being fired at supersonic velocities.

The low velocity, meaning subsonic, rounds w/larger shot, in fact, do work. And they can work very well. I've no experience w/moderated shotguns, but used to hunt ducks & geese passionately and have taken fair numbers of them using reloads when lead was the only kind of shot anyone knew about or used. And I have taken fowl at distance using sub-sonic loads w/large lead shot, when legal to do so.

I'll mention en passant, that 'magnum', meaning high levels of antimony, becomes unnecessary with lead shot in sizes larger than #5, in my experience. That's from much grease plate & 'butcher paper' testing done years ago when lead was still legal here for duck hunting & my curiosity about shotguns & patterns bordered on insatiable. I don't know how many patterns could be shot on a roll of butcher paper, but I went thru over two & ½ rolls of it drawing circles & counting holes w/assorted loads before moving to a grease plate.

I don't do much duck hunting any longer, but I still do a fair amount of dove and clay target shooting w/lead shot. 24#'s of powder for 12 ga. target loads per annum, on average these days. Sub-sonic light [¾ oz. or 24 gram] 12 ga. loads w/lead shot can produce patterns too tight for use on bunker trap practice! Its well documented and has been for a long while. The effective loads are purposely loaded well above super-sonic to get the patterns to 'bloom' from the increased air resistance. Just saying.

Lots of good information to be gleaned here from folks who share their first hand experiences or have archives and are willing to share. Thanks, Gentlemen!


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:58 am 
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Calling this a principle implies we didn’t understand the relationship of mass and velocity until it was written.

I kinda feel like ‘well duh’ is the proper response here.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:20 am 
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tw wrote:
I think we are being confronted by a self described 'expert' who has spent more time on a keyboard than actually shooting clays or game w/a shotgun that mostly regurgitates what others have written and not always accurately. In fact, it is necessary to keep pressures within established limits regardless of shot load. And yes, larger shot size can produce adequate lethality at extended ranges w/o being fired at supersonic velocities.

The low velocity, meaning subsonic, rounds w/larger shot, in fact, do work. And they can work very well. I've no experience w/moderated shotguns, but used to hunt ducks & geese passionately and have taken fair numbers of them using reloads when lead was the only kind of shot anyone knew about or used. And I have taken fowl at distance using sub-sonic loads w/large lead shot, when legal to do so.

I'll mention en passant, that 'magnum', meaning high levels of antimony, becomes unnecessary with lead shot in sizes larger than #5, in my experience. That's from much grease plate & 'butcher paper' testing done years ago when lead was still legal here for duck hunting & my curiosity about shotguns & patterns bordered on insatiable. I don't know how many patterns could be shot on a roll of butcher paper, but I went thru over two & ½ rolls of it drawing circles & counting holes w/assorted loads before moving to a grease plate.

I don't do much duck hunting any longer, but I still do a fair amount of dove and clay target shooting w/lead shot. 24#'s of powder for 12 ga. target loads per annum, on average these days. Sub-sonic light [¾ oz. or 24 gram] 12 ga. loads w/lead shot can produce patterns too tight for use on bunker trap practice! Its well documented and has been for a long while. The effective loads are purposely loaded well above super-sonic to get the patterns to 'bloom' from the increased air resistance. Just saying.

Lots of good information to be gleaned here from folks who share their first hand experiences or have archives and are willing to share. Thanks, Gentlemen!


i did some 3/4oz subsonics a while ago. they were nothing to write home about, i had to use a real fast powder. there intended use was for geriatric game shooters and children, on those pheasant shoots, the birds come to them, you could even shout at the birds and they`d drop.
they`d still rather use there 12 gauge than sub gauge. as pheasant shooting here is synonymous with 12 gauge shotguns. you can often book a "small bore" shooting day.
obviously normal days you can use anything you want.
for game shooting and hunting is dominated by 12s. often high volume shooting.

when i designed them and had them tested, i was more concerned with pressure than external ballistics. i just tend to do internal ballistic stuff.

what anyone does with the data afterwards is their business.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:30 am 
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I don't know why folks don't think it works......

Subsonic at sea level is 1,126 FPS. A lot of turkey loads have a velocity around 1,150 FPS and we kill turkeys with 4's, 5's & 6's just fine. Does anyone really believe that there is a huge terminal ballistic difference between 1,126 FPS and 1,150 FPS, for any pellet size?

Chamber pressure has NOTHING to do with whether this 'principal' works or not.

The reason the principal throws such tight patterns is because the acceleration (set back) is less than with higher velocity loads. When you don't subject the pellets to as much acceleration you don't have as much pellet deformation, which leads to tighter patterns.

AND it is easier to get larger pellet sizes (4's maybe 5's) and larger to behave when you don't try to launch them at higher velocities. This is why it was mentioned that some of the more open choke constrictions didn't seem to matter much, they all patterned similarly.

It's gonna work.

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:12 am 
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Nebs wrote:
What a crock!. Low velocity principle? It's necessary to keep the pressures below the max with shot charges that heavy. And the large shot sizes make up for the low velocity in terms of down range pellet energy.


My level of comprehension is apparently low today - apologies.

Why is it necessary to keep the pressures below the max with heavy shot charges?

Hodgdon's online reloading data shows 1½ ounce loads in 2¾" hulls at 1315 fps and 11,500 psi.

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:32 am 
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Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Setback definitely has something to do with it. I can only speculate on the why part, all I know is in my experience patterns get significantly tighter. While they are related, low velocity is not necessarily subsonic. I rarely load anything over 1200 fps or under 1145 fps.. Subsonic is determined by the physics. I don't know that a number has been put on low velocity. It is a relative term. The higher the velocity of a shot charge, the faster it loses velocity. It will always maintain a velocity advantage over a slower load but as the loads travel down range, the velocity difference decreases. Also, larger pellets maintain velocity better. Thanks pitted bore!
Low velocity loads are not for everybody & every situation but I do think they have a place in shotgunning, especially waterfowl hunting! I can't swear to it but I believe the "Low Velocity Principle" has it's roots in the black powder, muzzle loading shotgun. Nobody was measuring velocity back then, they just measured powder!


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:06 am 
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Take a box of your cracked and torn reject crimps to the trap or skeet range for practice. You will see smoke ball breaks when you are on target. Poor crimps lower pressure lower velocity tighter patterns. I shot some on a grease plate to confirm my suspicions . Hot coring in the pattern.

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:25 pm 
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Hmmmm, so you don't get smokeball breaks with your 'good' reloads when you are on target?

As with all these theories and principals the actual patterns while different aren't as extreme as we like to make them out to be.

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:44 pm 
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I get really good breaks but not dust. I choke for the range. 8 1/2 at 16 yards and a light modified crushes the rock. Hot cored loads turn them to dust even with 7 1/2.

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:03 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Hmmmm, so you don't get smokeball breaks with your 'good' reloads when you are on target?

As with all these theories and principals the actual patterns while different aren't as extreme as we like to make them out to be.


Not extreme, maybe 1/2 the size?
Maybe 1/4 at a push?


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:21 pm 
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Cookoff013,

What are the total pattern pellet counts, and central thickening numbers of the patterns for the subsonic loads?

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:13 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Cookoff013,

What are the total pattern pellet counts, and central thickening numbers of the patterns for the subsonic loads?

Dont know.
A friend tested some, varied 88% and higher. That was with 4s
That patterns were quite even.
1,1/8oz #4 pattern was about 4normal claypigeons size. In a 2x2.

When they hotcore i cant guess. But i dont pattern stuff extensively.
The 42g loads were tight. Too much shotcount to bother

I never patterned the 3/4oz. I moved on to a different project before i had chance to make more after the proof tests were done


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:57 pm 
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Thanks!!

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:28 pm 
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The same article by Ron Forsyth (i'm assuming) appeared in the Australian Shooters Journal in the 1990's. He wrote a lot of interesting articles re shotgunning that were published in the ASJ magazine about that time.

The LVP dates back to black powder times and no choke where to get denser patterns you used a slower load (less powder) and more shot (heavier load).

The LVP is about balancing out pattern versus penetration. For example, a fast load of #8's will run out of penetration (pellet energy) long before pattern density. A slow (heavy) load of #4's will run out of pattern density before penetration. All this pertains to wingshooting gamebirds rather than target shooting.

I suppose the perfect load / choke combination runs out of both at the same range, the maximum for that combination.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:16 am 
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my friends who tested them shot lots of patterns, on paper and cardboard, i new they patterned tight but didnt know the numbers. i was just interested in pattern size. the other issue was, i shot my patterns with sk / or 1/4, but they used a moderated 12gauge full moderator and 1/2 choke.
so i`m comparing pineapples, to oranges. they shot 10 or 15 patterns, i shot not many but different loads.

the second part of the comparisons are slightly missleading, i think they used 5s and 6s as that was as big a shotsize as theyd go. the wads were different too. (i used 4mmOP, 20mmfibre, i think they used a different fibre wad sandwich.) hardly identical.

doubt i`ll ever proof test subsonics again. as i`ve done most weight. 1,1/2 oz lead subs can take birds, another associate of mine did that, he said they were slow. but i think he was using BB.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:33 am 
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Since it seems I unknowingly "stirred the pot" does anyone load duplex shells? For quail/pheasant/huns? Seems like if patterns hold would be worth it. 7.5 and 4s or 5s

Thanks again for the replies.


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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:50 am 
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Duplex loads are a bad idea. The reason is that you end up with the larger shot leading the smaller shot and as the distance grows longer you end up with a long shot string.

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 Post subject: Re: The low velocity principle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:46 am 
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Good info for newbie

Thanks




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