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 Post subject: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:43 pm 
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I have seen that Winchester suggests that using load data for their new "High Strength" hulls is the same as one would use for the original Compression formed hulls. I have heard some nasty things about the new style having basewads coming loose, and wonder if the load should be reduced a bit for these?

Also,

What is the "Polyformed" AA hull that is mentioned in the Lyman #4 book? Is this the cheap target loads? Or is this the new style AA hull? It does mention seperate plastic basewad.




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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:47 pm 
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No, I see no reason to reduce the charge for the new style AAs. They seem to work just the same for me! The polyformed hull is the cheaper hull with a seperate base wad but still somewhat different than the newer Universal/AA style of 2 piece hull. Typicaly they are the field/duck and pheasant/ expert hull that has a straight thin plastic hull that is usually a dull/matte finish and had a 6 point crimp. It is definatly different than either the old or new AAs. I usually just pitch them, they don't load all that well anyhow. Given all the other hulls lying arround from Federal, Cheddite, Challanger, Nobel, Fiocchi, Estate, Remington, etc. Why bother with a hull that doesn't crimp well??

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:47 am 
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I havent had any problems loading them with the same recipes...the only detraction is that they dont last as many reloads as the old ones, they start to split at the crimp much sooner. Thankfully, the STS hulls seem to be as good as the old AA's and the load is the same. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:33 pm 
I am having trouble with the AA HS 20 gauge hulls. I am getting a deformed area 7/8 from the bottom of the shell. This is not happening with the older hulls. I am using WAA 20 with 40 pounds of wad pressure.

I am using a Mec 600 Jr. Finished shell length is 2.30 inches.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:40 am 
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Bill, I have never ever had a problem with the old AA's but, I have had this happen to me with the new style AA hulls for my 12ga loads. Seems to happen on the final crimp. Your wad pressure seems about right for the info Winchester has made available on their site for loading the new style hulls. You may have to make a slight adjustment to your pre- crimp die, as this is another suggestion they make.

I seemed to find that by applying a pretty solid downward pull, slow but sure on the primer seating stage, and then doing the pre-crimp twice, after turning the shell, before final crimp eliminated this deformation. I suspect as others have mentioned that the basewad may move up slightly when inserting the primer, and the gas seal on the wad is catching the upper lip of the basewad, and deforming the side of the hull during final crimp.

I notice a slight resistance on the primer seating, and I think the slight more pressure may re-seat the basewad. I have not adjusted my shot wad pressure at all,(less than 20lb) which I suspect is Winchesters way of making sure the basewad is forced back down. I am still not sure what the pre-crimp stage would have to do with preventing the deformation, other than perhaps settling the shot down into the shot wad a bit better, so there is less pressure on the hull wall?

I am sure some with a more brilliant mind than mine might offer a better explanation, this is just my feeling, about what causes the problem. Doing it my way does hamper the speed of loading, but has eliminated the deformation.

I think we will all be loading STS hulls one day, when the last of the old AA's disappear. :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:30 am 
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STS hulls in 20 ga aren't the answer either. They are just as easy to crunch as the new AAs. I doubt that the base wad is coming loose from seating a primer and I doubt that the wad is catching on the base wad, and even if it did that isn't what is causing the problem. It has to do with the difference in crush resistance/strength of the hull body it's self. You have to have more "headspace" with the new hulls. Headspace being the distance between the shot charge and the end of the hull, before starating the crimping process. Make sure you have enough crimp starter forming before final crimp and your problem will vanish. Well, more or less vanish. Once in a while you get one that just doesn't want to cooperate. I find forming the final crimp in two or three steps helps significantly. No, there just isn't anything quite like the old AAs, but sooner or later they will be a thing of the past and we will be stuck with what we afe getting now! The key is the room above the shot charge available to form a crimp. You can't force them like you can with the old AAs! That is true with the STS as well as the new AAs. In fact, I had the probelm with the STS before I ever had any new AAs. The STS doesn't have any base wad to give any supposed problems but it will give the same symptoms just the same.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:33 am 
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I too have had some problems lately with the newer AA hull, as well as the Remington Premiers hulls collapsing on the final crimp in the MEC 600. This is with 20 gauge 7/8 oz loads using 16 grains of Universal Clays and WWAA20 wads. I adjusted the wad pressure up to 50 and backed off on the crimp die a tad. I have had better luck but occasionally will still fold a few shells. And I agree that a slow even pull of the lever at the final crimp stage seems to help. What I finally did was go to a Ponsness Warren loader which uses a full length sizing die at each step of the loading process. Result: no more folded hulls and a taper crimp that is indishtinguishable from factory original.


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:42 am 
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cemoto_man is right; the PW 375 will cure the problem. I see a business opportunity here for some sharp machinist who can make a user friendly die to support the hulls during crimping in the MEC....


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 12:46 am
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I'm having nothing but trouble with the new AA hulls. I am not having any problem at all with STS, Gun Club, or old style AA's.

I'm using an RCBS "The Grand" loader.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=5087


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:09 pm
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I've had zero problems with the STS 12ga. hull's. Certainly can't say the same for the new AA's.

For grin's, I loaded up 25 of the new AA's and 6 of the 25 gave me problem's. IMHO, they're not worth the hastle.

To prove the negative preception of the new AA, just look around your local trap and skeet club and take notice of all the empty AA hull's laying on the ground. Then notice the lack of STS's. Heck, before the advent of the new AA hull, finding AA hulls on the ground at the range was like finding gold. Now they're everywhere!


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:57 pm 
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mojo;

Just leave them lay there, I'll be along shortly to pick them up! I can make them work just fine!

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:31 am 
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No worries Mr. Ambassador. May you find many!


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:08 am 
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Try just a touch of silicon lubricant in that final crimp die. Spray a little on clean cloth (not directly into the final crimper and wipe the inside of the die good. You may have to use a short piece of dowl to get the cloth to the top. This will help keep the die clean and the case will slide on the die easier. It helps a little.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 11:20 pm 
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Mcbirch,
I have heard also of lubing the precrimp ever so slightly, to assist in getting better crimps. I have done this and crimps never have been a problem. You may have a good idea about a light silicone lube on the final crimp!

Funnny how the new AA's work so good for some, and not for others. Maybe its all in the wrist. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:58 am 
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I solved my 20ga problem simply by using the RXP20 wads instead og the WAA20 wads. Load is the same but never a crushed hull.

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:10 pm 
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mtaylor;

Hmm, I tried that and I didn't think it helped any. Maybe if I had my press set up correctly in the first place it would have worked well with the RP wad too. I tried one again last night, and during the seating of the wad the RP wad collapses sideways and then made a bit of a rib on the outside of the hull. It still didn't have what I thought was enough free space between the shot and the end of the hull to make a good crimp without crushing the hull. I pulled the wad and went back to the Claybuster AA wannabe. I'm curious what the P-W crimp station has in thier full support crimp station that my Bair/Pacific crimp die doesn't have? My die fully supports the hull during crimping too, that's not been the problem. You CAN danged well crush the hull if the crimp isn't done correctly whether it is in a fully supported die or not. It just buckles inward instead of outward! I guess I have to admit, they are a bit more of a problem than the old AAs, but, I still pick all of them up I find, I can make them work.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:08 pm
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Location: southwest desert
Hi guys; You might better read what winchester has to say about the "HS" shells. The info can be found on the Winchester site. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:07 pm 
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Ddawg;

I have, even have the latest 2003 Winchester data book. Says the same thing. Even says you MUST use thier new wads to load the new HS 28 and .410 hulls. I didn't look at the 28 ga data since I don't have any AA HS hulls for 28 ga yet, but, you aught to see the amount of data available from Hodgdon using the HS hull and NON-HS specific wads for the same hull that Winchester says MUST be loaded with THIER wad exclusivly! Hmm, marketing 100 live and in person again! Only a mater of time before the other powder and wad manufacturers come up with data too. Only thing they, Winchester, says about the 12 and 20 ga hull is exactly what I've said too. Seat the wad deeper, leave enough hull for a crimp, and don't buldge the hull at the crimp line with the crimp starter station. Once you get your machinne set up for the NEW AAs you can use the exact same setting and data for all your old ones too!! Yup, worked for me!

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Iis it true? New AA's vs Old style.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:00 am 
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Well, just as I did with the Peters Blue Magic hulls when they went out of production, I'm now saving all of my older-style AA hulls. I use these hulls for color-coding via their base color. Since STS hulls are the #1 available compression formed hulls now, I'll be using green hulls for my basic target loads, and gold hulls (Nitro 27s) for my basic hunting handloads. The Silver and red AAs and the blue Peters will be relegated to the loads that I shoot up slowly, in order to prolong their life....




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