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 Post subject: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 307
After > 40 years of 12 gauge (target load) reloading, I am now setting up a MEC 9000 28 gauge. I have been using a MEC 9000 12 gauge for quite a while with very good success.

The goal is to mimic the 28 gauge AA target load: 3/4 oz at 1200 fps for use in my Briley tubes.

Components:
AA HS Hulls once fired
Win 209 Primer
13.0 gr 20/28 - #16 bushing is pretty close.
CB-5034-HS wad
3/4 oz shot - of course stock bar is throwing a bit light, but close enough.

This combination resulted in good stack height. .

Questions:
1. How deep should the crimp be on the 28 gauge? Mine look shallower than a factory load, and cases began to bulge slightly if adjusted for a deeper crimp.
2. Despite adjusting Station 6 down quite a bit, I did not yet end up with a nicely rounded top edge. Am I expecting too much when comparing to the 12 gauge experience?




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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
28 gauge is full of compromises because of the varying hull lengths in the HS line unless you want to sort hulls by length.
I have gotten my 9000 to load all HS hulls with the same set-up, but some have shallow crimps some are perfect. None bulge but I am sure the tall hulls are right on the edge.
You have to play around with stations 4, 5 and 6 but it can be done if you want. Otherwise sort the hulls into long and short lengths and play around with the settings.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:04 pm
Posts: 1814
Location: Warrior, Ala
The longer hulls are more apt to wrinkle or bulge.
I have better success with the Rem wad PT-28 or PT-28 stitched.
The best wad in my inventory is the blue Pattern Control.
It is designed for the compression formed AA hull, but loads up and shoots fine.
Wads designed for comp formed seem to have a smaller powder cup than the HS wads.
It seems like they run .517 vs .540.
My crimps are nearly flush also, but stay crimped and shoot fine.
I load, AA HS hulls, Rem PT-28, 13.5 grs 20/28, 3/4 oz #8 Eagle shot.

These are suggestions and you should follow listed load data.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 am 
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A couple things to keep in mind with 28ga on a 9000... First is that the crimp die at station 5 is NOT like what the manual shows. It's the same die that's on a 600jr or a Sizemaster and that's info I got from MEC. There's a cutaway drawing that shows the innards in the owners manual and instructions for adjusting the crimp work better than what the 9000 manual says.

Next is the fact that the die at 6 is mostly for decoration. The tech wouldn't confirm that but he wouldn't deny it either.

My best finished loads also have a crimp that's a bit shallow but to get them where I'd like to see them and I start bulging the hulls and my recipe is almost exactly the same as yours. They work fine in my O/U but they're hit and miss as the 2nd shell in my wife's SA-28 but she doesn't have that many rounds thru it.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:04 am 
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Stuck-N-Kali wrote:
. There's a cutaway drawing that shows the innards in the owners manual and instructions for adjusting the crimp work better than what the 9000 manual says.


Which manual, I can't find it in the 3 I searched.

Stuck-N-Kali wrote:
Next is the fact that the die at 6 is mostly for decoration. The tech wouldn't confirm that but he wouldn't deny it either.


Mine works as designed, it took longer to get it dialed in because of the varying hull lengths but it does work.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:43 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
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Location: Mascoutah IL
That's my load exactly and I get better and more consistent crimps than what I see with a factory box of AAHS.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 307
From the OP:

To clarify: The case bulging mentioned was all at the top - more like a slight mushroom shape. This got worse if I tried to make crimp deeper.

I only loaded 10 cases and intended to let them sit to see if there was any crimp creep. They still look OK one day later.

I want to go to the range and try these out before loading more.

Good suggestion to sort cases by length. Will do this before loading any quantity.

Interesting comment about Station 6. The only result that I could see from adjusting downward were some longitudinal lines showing up, but no rolled edge. I did not adjust so far to get case bulge.

It sounds like my results are not unusual but can be improved.

Appreciate the feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:05 pm 
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One additional question: what size hole should result after the pre-crimp station for the 28 gauge?


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
Malcolm7 wrote:
From the OP: To clarify: The case bulging mentioned was all at the top - more like a slight mushroom shape. This got worse if I tried to make crimp deeper.

Interesting comment about Station 6. The only result that I could see from adjusting downward were some longitudinal lines showing up, but no rolled edge. I did not adjust so far to get case bulge.



You get rid of that mushroom top with station 6, adjust it down until you wrinkle/crease the hull just above the brass and then back it off slowly until the wrinkle is gone.
You might have to back off the pre-crimp a bit as the taper crimp comes into use. Thats because the taper crimp rolls in the top 1/8" or so of the hull and might cause appearance issues with too much pre crimp. My reloads drop all the way to the ejectors without me pushing them down.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:28 pm 
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YevetS wrote:
Stuck-N-Kali wrote:
. There's a cutaway drawing that shows the innards in the owners manual and instructions for adjusting the crimp work better than what the 9000 manual says.

Which manual, I can't find it in the 3 I searched.

The Sizemaster manual on page 10, picture #27. And if you look at the part no's, both the 9000 and Sizemaster show 100721CA28. In fact, all the SM crimp assemblies have a "1007.." number and for a 9000, only the 12ga and 20ga have different numbers and they start with "1006.." So according to the tech I spoke with, if it's a '0-7' number, use the tips in the SM manual, not the 9000 manual.


Stuck-N-Kali wrote:
Next is the fact that the die at 6 is mostly for decoration. The tech wouldn't confirm that but he wouldn't deny it either.

Mine works as designed, it took longer to get it dialed in because of the varying hull lengths but it does work.

You may be right but my best understanding is that proportionally, the 28ga taper die doesn't have the same amount of taper as the ones for a 12 or 20ga so it's a finer line between getting enough to get rid of the mushroom and buckling the hull. Based on that, I'm guessing the difference in mine with a bit of mushroom and the ones without is likely due to some variation in the hull length.


Steve


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:00 pm 
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Kali

Thanks for the reply. I have known about the part # difference for a while, just did not know of the cut away crimper picture.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:58 pm 
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From the OP:
I am learning that small adjustment errors which did not have a notable effect on 12 gauge loads on the MEC 9000, can cause issues with the 28 gauge.

Here are a few photos of my "progress" that I welcome feedback on.

Hulls were all once fired in my gun, and then sorted for length. Those loaded were all the longer ones. Only a few shorter ones found so far.

Based on previous feedback, I made a few adjustments and ended up with crimps as shown next. Note the small raised blips at 12:00.
Image


Occasionally this would occur after Station 5:
Image

I lowered the pre-crimp a bit. Does this look about right?Image

After this, crimps looked a bit better. The small blips went away. Now crimps run OK for a while and then get a bit bungled up like the three in the middle as shown in the next series. No adjustments were made before or after, this just seems to show up for unknown reasons and then go away.
Image


Last edited by Curly N on Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
images retrieved from listed links and posted inline to be visible


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:19 pm 
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Malcolm7 wrote:
I am learning that small adjustment errors which did not have a notable effect on 12 gauge loads on the MEC 9000, can cause issues with the 28 gauge.


Reloading rule #8..the smaller the hull diameter the greater the effect of a small adjustment.

Malcolm7 wrote:
Occasionally this would occur after Station 5:
https://imgur.com/pEosGvY


If these "bumps" always occur on the same side of the hull in relation to the die check the squareness of the die head to the base. You can only change the left/right squareness.

[quote="Malcolm7"]
I lowered the pre-crimp a bit. Does this look about right?https://imgur.com/wIzCmpB

MAYBE a bit more, if things get better leave it, if they go south put it back were it was.


Steve

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I repair MEC presses. PM me.
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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:21 pm 
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Lower the pre-crimp a bit
In your last photo starting on the left.
Third shell the spindex missed the old fold.
4th and 5th also missed the fold.
This all can be caused by hull length variation. Are you sorting your hulls by length? Length is a bit more finicky with the 28's
Crimp depth should be about 0.035".
I use a digital tire tread depth gauge to check mine.
Got it cheap on Amazon,right here.
Tread depth gauge on Amazon

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:26 pm 
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Steve Y,

Not sure if bumps oriented to press. Just lined up for photo. Seemed to get better after first pre-crimp adjustment.

Curly,
I did sort hulls by length for gross differences.

Will try lowering pre-crimp a bit more for next test.

Crimp depth is pretty close to 0.035” using dial caliper as depth gauge.

Need to test fire first 50 before I do more.

Thanks all!


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:56 pm
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I load the same components but with long shot, my crimps are shallow but they stay closed and they go bang. My hulls are on their 10 th go round. Just shoot them


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Latest results from the OP:

The first batch of reloads worked fine in my 28 gauge tubes.

Lowered the pre-crimp a bit more as advised. So far so good.

Here is photo of pre-crimp and typical finished shells.

https://imgur.com/E4wWoRO


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:12 am 
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I load 28 gauge on a 9000, and as always Curly nails it. I found that AA hulls can be at least 3 different lengths. We wound up going to Browning BPT hulls which have a very consistent length, we load them with same AA recipe and components, and have enjoyed great results for a year now.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:50 am 
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Also, after checking many thousands of WWAAHS-28 hulls for length, I have found that a very low percentage of them are actually the same length all around the hull. The top is not perpendicular to the body of the hull and as you might expect, this makes it difficult to get a perfectly formed crimp the has the folds meet in the center. Combine that with the variation in average length and the "Looks Good Enough" decision comes into play too often for those that tend to be perfectionists. But that is the way it works unless you want to trim the hulls to get them all the same length and square across the top. These guys don't make a 28 hull trimmer according to the site, https://creativereloadingsolutions.com/

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions on 28 ga reloading with MEC 9000
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:22 am
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OP: How critical is it that you get as close to 3/4 ounces of shot as possible? I load 28 gauge on a Grabber, essentially the same die setup as the 9000. I became frustrated with the AAHS hull height variations, and "solved" my crimp tenting or bulging problem by buying a MEC 11/16 ounce charge bar. I happily gave up 1/16 ounce of shot for the easier and more reliable crimps that I now achieve. Just a thought... - Ed




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