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 Post subject: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:45 pm 
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I ran across this and I found it plausible:

https://youtu.be/0pk2434-O6k



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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:06 pm 
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I've thought for a long time that primer production, particularly handgun primers, was going to factory-loaded ammunition.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:43 pm 
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kind of the opposite, it comes from ammo production.
'reloading' primers are outlets for leftover products not a main source of income for anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:33 pm 
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fiver wrote:
kind of the opposite, it comes from ammo production.
'reloading' primers are outlets for leftover products not a main source of income for anyone.


Incorrect. Remington, Winchester, and Federal all use primers in production ammunition which are not available to reloaders. All three mfgs most definitely produce at least some of their primers ONLY for factory ammo. There is no such thing as an "overrun" in the ammo world (canceled contract, maybe, but if they set out to make 100k of something, the final number is going to be damn close), at least never enough that it would be possible to package and market something with consistency.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:52 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:

Remington, Winchester, and Federal all use primers in production ammunition which are not available to reloaders.


Why would they do that?


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:07 am 
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IndyCA35 wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:

Remington, Winchester, and Federal all use primers in production ammunition which are not available to reloaders.


Why would they do that?


One of Remington's senior managers in shotgun ammo production explained this way to me -

"We would not want to use the same primer in a 410 load as we would use in 3 1/2" magnum 12 gauge."


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:34 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
fiver wrote:
kind of the opposite, it comes from ammo production.
'reloading' primers are outlets for leftover products not a main source of income for anyone.


Incorrect. Remington, Winchester, and Federal all use primers in production ammunition which are not available to reloaders.



Ian, are you saying that SOME of the primers used in factory ammo are different, or that all of them are different? Are the W209's I buy for reloading different than those in new target shotshells? How did you come by this info?


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:17 am 
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SWSportsman wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
fiver wrote:
kind of the opposite, it comes from ammo production.
'reloading' primers are outlets for leftover products not a main source of income for anyone.


Incorrect. Remington, Winchester, and Federal all use primers in production ammunition which are not available to reloaders.



Ian, are you saying that SOME of the primers used in factory ammo are different, or that all of them are different? Are the W209's I buy for reloading different than those in new target shotshells? How did you come by this info?


I would say a majority are different, at a minimum at least cosmetically.

Until recently the primers used in ALL Winchester AA target loads had a copper center and silver ring, the reloading primers had a brass center and silver ring, so at a minimum they are making two different kinds of primers (the also make one for muzzleloaders that has a black center and silver ring). Now they've started using a primer with a brass center and silver ring in at least some of the AA factory loads, so who knows if that's the same primer as reloaders get or not.

Remington uses at least three different kinds of primers, one in the STS (all brass), one in the Gun Club 20ga (brass center silver ring), and one in their hunting loads (brass center copper ring), all cosmetically quite different. They did also offer a 209 muzzleloader primer at one point which was all silver, different than any primer I've seen them use in a shotshell.

Federal uses at least two different primers, one in their target loads (brass center silver ring) and one in their hunting loads (copper center silver ring). They also market a muzzeloader primer.

It obviously makes sense when you're loading such a wide variety of ammo to tailor your primer to your load for maximum efficiency. And there is nothing that guarantees that the reloading primer is the same as ANY of the primers the factory uses; some of the wads sold for reloaders by factories aren't even the same wads used BY the factory in the ammo they produce (ex WAAHS 410 wads).

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:31 am 
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Just like powder and wads, primers that the manufacturer's use are different than the primers we have for reloading. Remington primers are good for target loads, but they will not consistently light off large amounts of slow burning powder. Federal 209A's are great for most loads but probably aren't ideal for 28 and .410 loads. YES we use them for those applications but they are not what a ballistician would use in a commercial load.

The primers that we have for reloading are undoubtedly used in some factory ammunition. But what they are used in......who knows.

Reloaders, typically over estimate how many components we actually use compared to the ammo factories.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:57 am 
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Just another Youtube "expert" who likely has no clue.

His theory is dependent upon the belief that ammo manufactures are spending money to purchase new facilities, equipment and hiring more employees to increase manufacturing capacity beyond normal to compensate for what some view as a lag in supply. Unless a manufacture had a bunch of equipment sitting idle and people sitting on their thumbs, purchasing new manufacturing capacity is the only option to manufacturing more than a normal supply of ammo. Only a fool of a manufacture would do this because they would end up with a bunch of expensive equipment and people they did not need once supply caught up.

Also, there is no primer shortage. You can buy all you want from GunBroker. As long as there are people out there willing to pay $1000 for a case of primers panic buyers and GunBroker sellers will strip them from retail shelves. Backorders are also being filled every day. A few weeks ago I received a case of Federal small pistol primers I had on backorder for about a month. So, while they were selling for $1000 per case on Gunbroker, I paid $135 for the case I had on backorder.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:36 am 
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DEG wrote:
Just another Youtube "expert" who likely has no clue.

His theory is dependent upon the belief that ammo manufactures are spending money to purchase new facilities, equipment and hiring more employees to increase manufacturing capacity beyond normal to compensate for what some view as a lag in supply. Unless a manufacture had a bunch of equipment sitting idle and people sitting on their thumbs, purchasing new manufacturing capacity is the only option to manufacturing more than a normal supply of ammo. Only a fool of a manufacture would do this because they would end up with a bunch of expensive equipment and people they did not need once supply caught up.

Also, there is no primer shortage. You can buy all you want from GunBroker. As long as there are people out there willing to pay $1000 for a case of primers panic buyers and GunBroker sellers will strip them from retail shelves. Backorders are also being filled every day. A few weeks ago I received a case of Federal small pistol primers I had on backorder for about a month. So, while they were selling for $1000 per case on Gunbroker, I paid $135 for the case I had on backorder.


The other thing is I believe most people assume is that every ammo mfg is running every flavor of every caliber/gauge they offer every day. They don't realize that every flavor and gauge is produced on the exact same equipment, there is a finite production capacity, and there is a production schedule to everything. They may have dedicated lines for stuff that is eminently popular (9mm, 223, ect), but even then there is a schedule to what bullet, weight, ect is run, and most of the rest of it is only made a handful of times a year. This can most readily be seen among the more esoteric calibers that the domestic mfgs still offer (7x57, 30-40 Krag, 250 Savage, ect), which are produced basically once a year and warehoused, hoping they come as close to matching production to demand as possible.

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Ian Smingler
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[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:17 pm 
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Ballistic products has Cheddite primers in stock, I don't need any so I didn't order any.



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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:41 pm 
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They are made in France where presumably there aren’t shortages or panic buying

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:54 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
fiver wrote:
kind of the opposite, it comes from ammo production.
'reloading' primers are outlets for leftover products not a main source of income for anyone.


Incorrect. Remington, Winchester, and Federal all use primers in production ammunition which are not available to reloaders. All three mfgs most definitely produce at least some of their primers ONLY for factory ammo. There is no such thing as an "overrun" in the ammo world (canceled contract, maybe, but if they set out to make 100k of something, the final number is going to be damn close), at least never enough that it would be possible to package and market something with consistency.


but they ain't gonna sell us 3 different primers.
not only would the data be a nightmare, but the supply chain would be too.
we get one type from one brand [or other] and they only get released when they make that type.
pretty much everything we get is produced in cycles, the cycles are volumed out to hopefully hold enough product in the chain until the next cycle rolls around.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:23 pm 
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fiver wrote:
but they ain't gonna sell us 3 different primers.
not only would the data be a nightmare, but the supply chain would be too.
we get one type from one brand [or other] and they only get released when they make that type.
pretty much everything we get is produced in cycles, the cycles are volumed out to hopefully hold enough product in the chain until the next cycle rolls around.

It's called production control and every manufacturing company has it in one form or another.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:33 pm 
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fiver wrote:
but they ain't gonna sell us 3 different primers.
not only would the data be a nightmare, but the supply chain would be too.


That's not necessarily true either. Remington produced 410-specific primers at one time, and sold them alongside their standard primers. Obviously the mfgs tailor specific loads to specific primers, reloaders get "good enough".

fiver wrote:
we get one type from one brand [or other] and they only get released when they make that type.


Also not 100% true. Vista, which owns Federal, markets both Federal and CCI primers. Same packaging, same overall shape, different brisance. At one point not too long ago Remington and CCI both marketed 410-specific primers alongside their "everything else" primers (at the time I believe CCI would have been offering three shotshell primers: magnum (currently offered), standard (currently offered), and 410 (obsolete)), so there is case-history for an ammo mfg to market more than one primer at a time. Hell, when it comes to rifle and pistol, a company may market 4 or 5 different flavors within once size (stadard, magnum, match, magnum match, ect)

fiver wrote:
pretty much everything we get is produced in cycles, the cycles are volumed out to hopefully hold enough product in the chain until the next cycle rolls around.


Maybe, maybe not. I guarantee there are bread and butter lines for each mfg which are run 365 days a year. 55 grain FMJ 223/5.56, 115 grain 9mm are two examples.

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Ian Smingler
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[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:38 pm 
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An interesting followup. I've been collecting Federal Top Gun hulls this week since the pipeline for free Gun Club hulls seems have to dried up. I noticed today that some of them are now using the primer with the silver ring and copper center (which is the primer they use in their high-end hunting loads) instead of the primer with the silver ring and brass center. So my quasi-educated guess is Federal is even running low on their in-house primers and have had to shuffle things around a little bit to keep up with demand.

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S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:11 pm 
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https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/why-is- ... -shortage/


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:13 am 
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oldtechshooter wrote:
https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/why-is-there-a-primer-supply-shortage/


Yea, the internet makes it easy for individuals to publish their beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Shortage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:17 am 
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DEG wrote:
oldtechshooter wrote:
https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/why-is-there-a-primer-supply-shortage/


Yea, the internet makes it easy for individuals to publish their beliefs.

Don't shoot the messenger. I just posted what I found.




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