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 Post subject: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:27 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Missouri
This is a question for all of the machinists and die insiders in house. I am in the process of shortening a 3" final crimp die for a Pacific DL-260 press in order to load and final crimp 2-9/16" shells for an antique short-chambered WW Greener shotgun of about 1901 vintage. I purchased the 3" final crimp die since that was the only 12 gauge die I could find for sale. They were often purchased to replace the 2-3/4" die when loading 3" magnum shells, hence there are a lot of them out there for sale. I put the 3" lower die part in my lathe and turned it down by 7/16", and tapered the leading interior end some, and beveled the outside edge just to cut the sharp edge. After reassembling the die and mounting it in the press, I can get proper reloads formed with it, except the shotshell case doesn't always bottom in the die like the 2-3/4" one does. So, is the lower interior of a final crimp die cut a larger diameter to clear the metal case head? Maybe I should have resized a 12 gauge shell and then cut it off short to see if my die clears it to go all the way in? Any help would be appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:24 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
Posts: 1843
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
mountain4don wrote:
So, is the lower interior of a final crimp die cut a larger diameter to clear the metal case head? .


Most likely, I would cut the top half of a 2 3/4" hull off and see if it fits. If it hangs up on the brass open the ID some. The only critical part of that die is the very top of it.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:55 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Missouri
I took a sized case and cut off all of the crimp plus about another 1/4" and tried it in my cut down 3" final crimp die, and compared that to sliding it into the original uncut 2-3/4" final crimp die. It drops right into the original 2-3/4" final crimp die all the way to the rim. But it only slides into the cut-down 3" final crimp die by force (maybe 10 pounds) to get it to the rim. I tried a formed, loaded and crimped 2-9/16" shortened shell in both dies and it drops all the way to the rim on the 2-3/4" die, but takes much force (20 pounds) to get it to the shell-holder depth in the shortened die. It feels like the original 3" die is tapered more than the 2-3/4" die is. So, it looks like my only solution is to either purchase a new 2-3/4" die to cut down or to try to machine the inside of the old 3" die all the way to the roll-over taper crimp at the top of the die.


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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:35 pm 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
mountain4don wrote:
It drops right into the original 2-3/4" final crimp die all the way to the rim. .


So can you cut this die down enough to get it to work with both length hulls??

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Missouri
YevetS wrote:
mountain4don wrote:
It drops right into the original 2-3/4" final crimp die all the way to the rim. .


So can you cut this die down enough to get it to work with both length hulls??

Steve


Since this is one of those antique shotshell presses in my collection of Pacific shotshell reloading presses, I prefer not to cut any original parts. Thats why I purchased the 3" die to try this out on. Now I am looking for an original 2-3/4" final crimping die that will fit in one of my antique presses. Preferably one of the single stage DL-150 or DL-260's. I have seen a few DL-150's missing parts for sale on one of our favorite auction sites a few times. I was hoping to grab one of those. Or if someone here has a final crimping die for one of these for sale I would appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:04 am 
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 6:31 pm
Posts: 172
Location: SE Virginia
I think you should look into the current production 366 final crimp die.
Nebs maintains that there is less body taper in the new aluminum die body, better suited to Reifenhauser style hulls.

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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:38 am 
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
mountain4don wrote:
Since this is one of those antique shotshell presses in my collection of Pacific shotshell reloading presses, I prefer not to cut any original parts. Thats why I purchased the 3" die to try this out on. .


OK, I can understand that. So open the ID of the 3" die slowly until it works.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Missouri
Slowpoke Rodriguez wrote:
I think you should look into the current production 366 final crimp die.
Nebs maintains that there is less body taper in the new aluminum die body, better suited to Reifenhauser style hulls.


The die bodies/threaded sections of the dies I am looking for are about 1.058" in diameter on the threaded section of the 3-piece dies. I will have to look at the dies for the 366 to see if they are compatible with this old DL-260 press. I also have a DL-150 that has a different die set up. It appears the upper threaded section of a die in the DL-360 is not there with just the center crimping plunger, a spring and the lower taper body of 0.990" in diameter.
Don

I went to the Hornady web site and looked at other sites at all of the common Hornady/Pacific shotshell reloading presses to compare all of the final crimping dies. It appears that the new Hornady 366 final crimping dies are the same design as in my DL-260, DL-350 and DL-360 presses, along with the far newer 155 red single stage presses. I am going to try calling Hornady on Monday and see if they can shed some light on these die sets and if I can purchase part number 59, the lower section of their 366 die set for a 12 gauge final crimp die. And this piece would be easier to cut down by 3/16" in my lathe to better fit and crimp my 2-9/16" shotshells.
Don


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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Missouri
YevetS wrote:
mountain4don wrote:
It drops right into the original 2-3/4" final crimp die all the way to the rim. .


So can you cut this die down enough to get it to work with both length hulls??

Steve


Thanks Steve for your solution to my perplexing problem! After studying the problem and the original 2-3/4" die length that I didn't want to cut down to 2-9/16" and destroy part of my original Bair (same as Pacific DL-260) shotshell reloading press, I realized that the shell holder was eating up about 3/16" of the shotshell base length. And since the spring loaded plunger would push the crimped shell back out of the die anyway, I tried cutting a piece of flat metal plate that measured 0.020" thick and just set it on top of the shell holder and put the shotshell to be crimped on top of that. And sure enough, I got a perfect crimp without crushing the shell tube and the shell was pushed back out of the die, no problems. So, loading shells for my 2-9/16" chambered antique W.W. Greener shotgun is a success! And here is my hopefully low pressure load:

Hull: Remington Gun Club trimmed to 2-9/16"
Primer: Winchester W209
Powder: 16.7 grains Red Dot
Wad: Claybuster CB1118-12 (WAA12) with 1/8" of pedals trimmed off
Wad Filler: 1/8" cork/rubber wad cut with sharpened 1/2" electrical conduit from gasket material
Shot: 7/8 oz. #5 (for squirrels)

Thanks everybody for your help creating these 2-9/16" shotshells for this antique shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4705
Location: Annapolis, MD
A 2 3/4 " final crimp die body for the 366 that is not tapered on the inside is available from Hornady in multiple gauges. They also have the 3" die available, but i don't know if it's for tapered or straight walled (suspect straight as I don't know of any tapered 3" hulls (maybe Rem?)). I have the 2 3/4" straight walled crimp die bodies in 12, 20 and 28 ga. I also recently bought a 3" die body but have not used it yet. How different is the 366 final crimp die from the ones that came with the other models?

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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:02 pm 
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Posts: 4705
Location: Annapolis, MD
Slowpoke Rodriguez wrote:
I think you should look into the current production 366 final crimp die.
Nebs maintains that there is less body taper in the new aluminum die body, better suited to Reifenhauser style hulls.
This is not entirely accurate. I only maintain the straight walled die body is available; I don't know what they are putting on current production 366s. The straight walled body is for use with the AAHS hull.

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 Post subject: Re: Shortening 12 Gauge Pacific Final Crimp Die
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:06 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:31 pm
Posts: 17882
Location: Kearney NE
Directly from the mouth of the Hornady customer service guy who went back to parts to bring me out the new aluminum crimp die bodies for my 12 and 20 ga 366s: “This new body is the same die body we used in the paper hull days, except now it’s aluminum, before CF AAs and Remington RXP/Premier hulls. It still works just fine for those hulls too but makes all the difference in the world with the HS AAs. Why we changed from this body to the tapered body in the first place is anybody’s guess. All the new production machines get this new OLD style die body.” Then he took my credit card and handed me the two new OLD die bodies, wished each other a good day and I came home, put them in my 366s and have never crushed a hull since. My 266 28 ga has a set of dies from back in those paper hull days, a straight wall body die. I have faced it off enough to be able to get good crimps on CF and HS AAs as well as Federal, Cheddite, and Premier/STS Remington hulls. The old school 28 ga. paper hulls were just a bit longer than today’s plastic hulls and as such needed a longer die body. It would bottom out on the press with HS AAs and not completely form the crimp. When I change to Federal, Remington, and Cheddite i adjust the plunger stem up just a bit to keep from crimping too deeply on the last longer hulls. My 16 ga press is a Bair 405 Honey Bair with an old set of Pacific paper hull era crimp die body dies in it. Since all the 16 ga hulls I load are either Federal or Cheddite it works just fine, haven’t had to modify anything.

BP



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