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 Post subject: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:37 pm 
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Hi guys, I picked up a bunch of Fio low recoil trainer hulls at my local sporting clays course. These hulls were not originally shot from my gun (Weatherby SA-08). I reloaded them using a standard recipe (27 gr Blue dot, TUWSBL2024/CSD20 wad, 3/4 oz #4 steel, OS card). Stack height was fine and I had to use an OS card to get a nice flat crimp. The brass was resized then the shell was resized during the final crimp.

I found out the hard way that they would not cycle and got stuck in the barrel.

So I did a little experiment.... right after reloading I checked and they fit into the barrel just fine. Slipped right in and out. BUT the very next day they got stuck about half way in. Too fat in the midsection. So they had expanded overnight.

My thinking is that the hulls, since they weren't initially shot from my gun, stretched a bit. My reloader pushed them back to the proper width, but over night they expanded back to where they wanted to be.

I don't think there is a remedy short of warming the plastic before the final crimp and resize stage , but that's quite a pain in the rear. So I should probably just toss them.

Anyone else have any experience like this?

Bryan




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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:54 pm 
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It isn't the gun they were shot in or your reloader. The issue is the wad column of the reload and possibly the Fiocchi hulls. Fiocchi hulls can be a bit soft. To get back to the wad column issue. If you had to use an overshot card it wasn't the right wad column height, but the shot card might have taken an iffy load and made it into a fat load.

Once the plastic is stretched your reloader does not resize the plastic. The chances of an oversized chamber in the original gun is slim.

Be sure that it is the hull's midsection and not the crimp starting to mushroom overnight.

Be sure the crimp depth and the cam adjustment(if you are using a MEC) is correct.

I am not a Fiocchi hull fan, they can be finicky......but you should be able to get a good reload.

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Last edited by dogchaser37 on Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:33 am
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Location: northern Oklahoma
Your nice flat crimp you referenced prolly still has stuff packed pretty tight in the hull, ie, too much stuff in too small a cavity. The plastic part of a hull never needs resizing, only the base, whether brass or steel, so if the hull is growing, it's because you have too much in it. Try crimping without that OS card, and see what happens.


My two pesos only


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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:16 pm
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Location: Escanaba, MI
Is it possible you compressed that charge a bit when you seated the wad?


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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
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Dogchaser nailed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:15 pm
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Sorry, I should add that the hulls (after being fired not from my gun and picked up, and before reloading) do NOT easily slide into the barrel. So they're starting out fat and not maintaining their resized dimensions. Coming out of the reloader they slide in/out just fine.
I have a box of unfired shells and they slide just fine.

This makes me think that they are expanding under heat and pressure to a new shape from someone elses gun. No?

Bryan


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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:18 pm 
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bchains,

I just tried some fired hulls to see how they fit and it was a mixed bag, some dropped in all the way, some were tight at the crimp end and had to be pushed in with resistance the entire way. Some of these hulls had been fired in the gun I was checking them in and they were a bit tight.

It doesn't matter how fired hulls fit in your shotgun before they are reloaded. What matters is how the hull fits AFTER you reload it. Shotgun hulls, especially 2-piece hulls are not tapered, shotgun chambers are tapered.

There are loads out there that simply do not fit. There are hulls that aren't the best for reloading. Put the two together and you can end up with loads that don't chamber easily, especially after they sit for a day or two.

A few things to look at.

Wad pressure, for a typical target load 30 lbs. is about right, enough to firmly seat the wad completely on the powder, not generally enough to collapse the wad much if at all.

Wad column height AFTER you seat the wad with 30 lbs. of wad pressure. In 12 gauge that should be 7/16" to 1/2" give or take. In your case you have to measure not to the top of the shot, but to the top of the overshot card. If it is less than 7/16" that could be the problem. The only reason for an overshot card in a fold crimp load is for keeping buffer in a buffered load. There is no reason for an overshot card in a target or hunting lead shot load that is fold crimped.

Crimp depth should be 0.055" to 0.060" taken as close to the shoulder as you can measure without getting it into the radius. Too deep can bulge the hull.

Radius (cam adjustment) at shoulder of crimp, should be nicely rolled inward but not enough to bulge the hull.

The final thing to consider are the Fiocchi hulls. I have had some that were just fine, others that were very soft and wouldn't cooperate without a lot of massaging.

Be sure that it isn't the crimp end relaxing after a day or so and creating the problem you are having. I have never seen a hull bulge in the middle, only just above the base or at the crimp. You have to know exactly what the problem is or you can chase your tail and make adjustments that don't need to be made.

Depending on how far you want to go with this, the metal head should measure 0.809" maximum (0.806" would be fine) and the hull should be 0.797" at the crimp or smaller. Depending on the hull it may or may not taper.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:39 pm 
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As a follow up, I checked some of my reloads after they sat for a period of time. The first is a 1 1/8 oz. load in a Federal GM hull. The brass measures 0.802" the body(plastic) of the hull is 0.785" and the very end of the crimp is 0.785" to 0.787". These were reloaded in August of 2019.

I also measured some Top Gun hulls with 1 oz. loads. The metal head was 0.803" the body was 0.785" and at the crimp they measured 0.790". These were reloaded in June of 2020.

All drop in my Benelli SS with no issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
Wad pressure, for a typical target load 30 lbs. is about right, enough to firmly seat the wad completely on the powder, not generally enough to collapse the wad much if at all.


I disagree; zero wad pressure is perfect when using plastic wads. Make sure the indicator just barely moves letting you know the wad is seated.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:02 pm 
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I agree - no wad pressure. If he was using a OS card for a good flat crimp, this means to me without one, the center of the crimp would be down in and maybe allowing shot to fall out. If so, the OS card is not a problem. It's been said before that shells from autos or someone working a pump quickly allows the shells to expand because they don't stay in the chambers long enough. The other problem is the gun they were fired in could have bigger chambers than your gun. Resizing only effects the metal base, not the plastic. If the plastic is too big in the middle it's because you have too much in it or it expanded from the last gun. If you're using a Mec, I don't think you can say the final crimp station is actually resizing the plastic part of the hull in the middle but it's keeping the shell from expanding when the final crimp is being made. I've reread your post a number of times and think any assumptions I've made are correct. A solution is sh!t can the Fiocchis and reload Rem, Fed, or Win hulls.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:07 pm 
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oneounceload and bladesmith,

I guess you can disagree, but there isn't a reloading manual or a ballistician that would suggest no wad pressure. You are supposed to seat the wad firmly on the powder before you drop the shot and then crimp. You are not and cannot be sure that a wad is seated 'firmly' on the powder by hoping for the crimp to apply the pressure.

SGW likes to claim no wad pressure is proper, and I admit to previously giving that 'advice', however it is incorrect.

In this case, the OP is having issues with something concerning either wad column height or crimping and or both. It is best to go about it with some known quantities.

The chamber in any shotgun would have to be grossly over size to stretch the plastic hull to the point of not chambering in the next firearm.

The OP clearly states that when he first reloads the hulls that they fit his shotgun. After the hulls sit overnight is when the problems start.

Also this is a reload using steel shot and a steel wad. There isn't much running room regarding the correct wad column height.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:38 pm 
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bchains,

I messed up here on the wad column height. I gave you the measurement on the wad column height for a 12 gauge not a 20 gauge, my apologies.

Should be 3/8" for a 20 gauge.

And the cartridge is 0.697" - 0.688" on the metal head and 0.684 maximum on the finished crimp end.

Sorry I saw the Precision Reloading TUW#### wad part number and immediately assumed it was 12 gauge steel.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:49 pm 
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dogchaser, wad pressure is a old hold over from black powder days. With smokeless, just make sure the wad touches the powder. I've never seen any claims that more or less wad pressure changes total pressure, changes burn rate, or anything. And no I don't hope the crimp will give more wad pressure. I'm not looking for any. I have IMR, Hodgdons, Accurate, and Alliant reloading hand books in front of me and none of them even mention wad pressure. Accurate does uses a page about how important crimps are. You saying " firmly " can mean different things to different people. "Firmly", I can agree with that. But shooting for say 20, 30, or 40 pounds of pressure, no. As many times that I reread the OPs post I didn't notice the 20 in the wad id. Irregardless, if he's using too much pressure for the final crimp, I suppose the crimp die could hold the sides of the shell in to the proper diameter and then a day or two latter the shell could expand. I've never heard of this, but then there's lots of things I haven't heard of when reloading. He should check load height , as what you give, to make sure he has enough room for a crimp without collapsing the wad.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:46 pm 
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bladesmith,

Wad pressure is not a holdover from yesteryear. A certain amount of wad pressure for a certain load is not important for a plastic wad. However seating the wad completely on the powder is important for many loads.

What you are missing about my post is that most folks have MEC machines and the first increment of wad pressure is......30 lbs. What I am trying to have the OP do is, because the wad does not collapse or compress, is to be certain that the wad is fully seated. This wad has a very sharp concave wad cup and just letting it touch the powder is not seating it completely on the powder. I am just trying to get a consistent base for the OP to work from.

_______________________________________________________________


As far as wad pressure goes with a target load, I get it, who cares. The powders are fast the payloads are light and the wads are very compliant. Most folks are never going to see a difference, because most folks think as long as it goes bang everything is fine.

However no wad pressure is incorrect and the slower the powder and the heavier the load, the more it matters.

Most folks think that letting the MEC wad pressure indicator bump is seating the wad on the powder, especially in a tapered hull that probably isn't true. I found this out one day using the DR-XL1 in a Remington Premier hull. I cut one open because the crimps weren't coming out uniform. Not terrible but not uniform. The wad was not seated on the powder in several completed hulls, because there was not enough wad pressure just 'bumping' the gauge. Once I bumped the wad pressure up to 30 lbs. the crimps got very consistent and the wad was now seated on the powder. I have also had some conversations with Alliant and the tech was insistent on seating the wad completely on the powder. I had always seated the wad with 30-40 lbs. of wad pressure but for a short period of time I drank the no wad pressure Kool-Aid too.

Again I know, "My loads never are a problem blah, blah, blah, and I never use wad pressure".

I get it. They're your loads and you can certainly do whatever you want.


YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:27 pm 
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bladesmith wrote:
dogchaser, wad pressure is a old hold over from black powder days. With smokeless, just make sure the wad touches the powder. I've never seen any claims that more or less wad pressure changes total pressure, changes burn rate, or anything. And no I don't hope the crimp will give more wad pressure. I'm not looking for any. I have IMR, Hodgdons, Accurate, and Alliant reloading hand books in front of me and none of them even mention wad pressure. Accurate does uses a page about how important crimps are. You saying " firmly " can mean different things to different people. "Firmly", I can agree with that. But shooting for say 20, 30, or 40 pounds of pressure, no. As many times that I reread the OPs post I didn't notice the 20 in the wad id. Irregardless, if he's using too much pressure for the final crimp, I suppose the crimp die could hold the sides of the shell in to the proper diameter and then a day or two latter the shell could expand. I've never heard of this, but then there's lots of things I haven't heard of when reloading. He should check load height , as what you give, to make sure he has enough room for a crimp without collapsing the wad.


I agree, especially with the bolded part........ {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:22 pm 
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My standard is 30 lbs of pressure to make sure the wad is seated, but I let back up off the pressure before dropping the shot, and I have not seen a new wad not rebound fully. I found this especially to be needed loading the new HS AA as I have seen even the new wads hang up on the portion of the basewad that comes up the side of the hull on these cases, even when using AA wads.

When loading steel I hand seat the wads as the drop tube, being a steelmaster with the wider tube, will catch in the wad and pull it back out. I press as hard as I can down on the wad with a wood dowel to make sure it is seated and there are no gaps between the wad and powder.

From the OP description its either a poor stack height issue or a weak hull issue, I would tend to lean towards the weak hull issue with the hulls being fiocchi with a little bit of a stack height issue combined, making the hulls swell hours after loading as the contents are under pressure.

In all my years of scrounging hulls of almost every manufacturer I have never seen a hull where the plastic part swelled due to firing in an oversized chamber. I have seen the brass/steel base expand a lot but they resize right back down.


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 Post subject: Re: Hulls expanding
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:04 pm 
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To each, their own. I see a bump, and I'm happy. Happy trails and reloading to all.



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