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 Post subject: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am
Posts: 218
The 7/8oz load calls for 17.5 grs of Red Dot. 1196 FPS, pressure 6500. I have powder bushings to throw 17.1 or 17.8. Which way should I go? This is my first reloading attempt.
Thanks




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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:12 pm 
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sandrooney wrote:
The 7/8oz load calls for 17.5 grs of Red Dot. 1196 FPS, pressure 6500. I have powder bushings to throw 17.1 or 17.8. Which way should I go? This is my first reloading attempt.
Thanks

Put enough aluminum tape in the one that throws 17.8 to get it to 17.5. If you don't want to do that, go with 17.8, .3 grains won't make that much difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
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Location: Mascoutah IL
sandrooney wrote:
The 7/8oz load calls for 17.5 grs of Red Dot. 1196 FPS, pressure 6500. I have powder bushings to throw 17.1 or 17.8. Which way should I go? This is my first reloading attempt.
Thanks


Double check the load data and see where your drop is within the range of loads listed for your components. I suspect the 17.5 is at the very bottom of the range so if you drop 17.1 then that you risk bloopers, especially in cold weather. I also suspect the 17.8 is below the maximum load listed for your components. If this is true, I would use the bushing that drops 17.8. You may be OK with 17.1 but I would not load more than a box or two before I shot them to make sure I didn't have bloopers.


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Until you weight the charges, you have no idea what those bushings are actually throwing; for my load of Extra-Lite, the chart said a #26 bushing was the one; weighing on a scale showed I needed a #30 to get that. I use a Grabber

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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:25 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 195
sandrooney wrote:
The 7/8oz load calls for 17.5 grs of Red Dot. 1196 FPS, pressure 6500. I have powder bushings to throw 17.1 or 17.8. Which way should I go? This is my first reloading attempt.
Thanks


What source?

What shell?

What wad?

What primer?

How much to those bushings actually drop in your loader?


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Location: New Mexico
You've got the luxury of starting with a low pressure target load. I'd guess you haven't yet actually dropped those "choice" bushings on you own loader, but most bushings end up dropping less than shown in the charts! So, try the heavier bushing and see what drops.....but don't go farther right now than dropping shot. If close to 17.5, continue on. If not, pick the next bushing to try.

The height in the shell of the powder and wad and shot should come up to about 3/8" below the mouth of hull. Lower than that, crimp folds can sink in center and shot will leak. Higher than that, and crimp "tents" up won't close, or has internal pressure that causes crimp to open up later. The goal is a level crimp, with the crimp about 0.050" below the rim that develops around the edge of the crimp.

If you still don't get good results following the recipe primer, weights and wad, you may need to find another wad that is either taller or shorter but that has a recipe with similar velocity and pressure.

There are no guarantees that all published loads will give YOU and your hulls and loading technique perfect results. Some very minor tweaking may be needed. But before you go crazy with tweaking, check back with what you have tired so far. Including wad you are loading, primer, and EXACT hull. Also check weigh what weight of shot your loader drops.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am
Posts: 218
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
sandrooney wrote:
The 7/8oz load calls for 17.5 grs of Red Dot. 1196 FPS, pressure 6500. I have powder bushings to throw 17.1 or 17.8. Which way should I go? This is my first reloading attempt.
Thanks


What source?

What shell?

What wad?

What primer?

How much to those bushings actually drop in your loader?


Lyman Handbook

Federal Gold Medal

Fed 12SO

Win 209

Have not checked the drop yet, I haven't even put powder in the hopper.

Thanks to all for the help


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:05 pm 
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At that pressure I'd go for the heavier load. I think you will find that the powder drop on shotshell reloaders will typically vary 0.2 grains either way or maybe a little more. So don't be surprised if your 17.8 bushing is dropping 18.1 grains some of the time and 17.5 grains other times. My MEC 9000 tends to drop heavier loads at the start and progressively lighter loads as the weight of the powder drops in the hopper. I always try not to let it get below 1/2 full.


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:04 pm 
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17.8 regardless if the pressure was at SAAMI max or not.

Gonna ask a question. Do you KNOW that the bushings will throw that amount of powder, as in you have actually weighed the powder charges during the reloading process?

Or are you going by a bushing chart?

If you are going by a bushing chart the actual powder drops will probably be much lighter than what is published on the bushing chart.

Do not go by the bushing chart, go by the actual powder drop when the machine is actually being used to reload the shells.

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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:16 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am
Posts: 218
I will check powder drop before loading. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:14 am 
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That's a pretty low pressure load. I use 18.5 grains of Red Dot with the same components and the crimp is dished enough so that I've added an overshot card.


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:23 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am
Posts: 218
These bushings are at least a full gn off.


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:34 am 
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sandrooney wrote:
The 7/8oz load calls for 17.5 grs of Red Dot. 1196 FPS, pressure 6500. I have powder bushings to throw 17.1 or 17.8. Which way should I go? This is my first reloading attempt.
Thanks
Looking at Alliant's data for the components you listed shows that using the 12SO wad calls for 19 or 19.5 grains of Red Dot powder with highest pressure at 8,400 psi. So using either of your bushings would not cause any grief other than the crimps will be woefully dished and probably unacceptable. I would recommend using the Alliant data of 19 or 19.5 grains of Red Dot with your components or use a different wad. The 12SO with your components is probably better suited to 1 oz loads. And, hopefully, you have a scale and can actually weigh the charges being thrown by any of your bushings. Bushing charts are only references on how to get fairly close to what you are trying to achieve. Always, always, ALWAYS weigh every time you use a new busing.

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Last edited by dubob on Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:45 am 
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As stated, take a look at the load you are wanting to use, then find the low and high FPS for that load with the different powder amounts to start with.

Why we want to know that High/fastest load of nothing more than powder increase, and it you may have to get close to it to achieve a desired FPS with chronic testing and even pattern testing is the load is hot spot centering at lower velocity.

Also, since you are looking for the top of shot stack in the load to be at the base of the hull fold line before crimping, this gives you the amount that you can either increase or reduce powder amounts to get the ideal hull stack.

As for powder bushings, then can be ID reduced with HVAC aluminuam foil tape, or reamed larger as as needed instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:45 pm 
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Now here is a way to get some use from the bushing chart. Now that you know the drop for the bushing you have pick a bushing from the chart that throws the correct difference from the one you are using. You will now be close. The chart is closer for differences than it is for absolute amounts, Now to answer the original question: I would pick the higher of those charges. Any time in loading light loads that produce little pressure I would go to the high side.


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am
Posts: 218
Some of these bushings aren't even close. I have a 32 that is supposed to drop 19.2 of Red Dot and it drops 17.5, almost 2 grains off. Of the other ones I have tied they have all been at least a grain off.


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:54 pm 
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I loaded a similar load very successfully for my son, but in a Winchester case with Winchester wads, so other than how it all fits in the case, your load should be fine.

And, your bushes aren't out of whack, the charts are. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:45 pm 
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Assuming your bushings are dropping what you say, it makes no difference. You say 6500 psi. I looks for loads that produce 10,500 psi, the SAMMI max is 11,500. You have nothing to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: Which way should I go????
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:50 pm 
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I checked my bushings over several drops before deciding, and with similar, ended up with larger drop, which turned out within .2 of "recipe". Didn't adjust from there, as pressures weren't at maximum and velocity turned out just about right. Just check several drops first.



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