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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:54 pm 
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Goldens Always wrote:
I had them tested and it is generating quite a bit less than that. And the same thing occured to me but after I thought a moment longer, I realized that can't be it, unless Longshot is a sentient powder.


What was the average tested pressure?
Would you mind posting the test results?

I suspect that temperatures were higher than 60 degrees when your pressure tests were done. What was the listed temperature during testing?

New, unfired cases will generate lower pressures than once fired. Running a hot primer like a FED209A will help compensate. Running on the low end of low pressure is going to get some poorly timed squibs going into the fall/winter hunting seasons.

Part of regulating burn rates is the use of combustion deterrents. Unburnt powder is normal for low pressure squib loads.



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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:19 pm 
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Longshot is a very slow burning powder. Slow burning powders are not very good unless you're loading heavy loads with adequate to high pressure.

I recall using some Green Dot years ago to load some light target loads. Although the loads exited the barrel and broke a few clay targets, they left a lot of unburned powder in the bore of the gun, and Green Dot is considerably faster burning than Longshot.

As a test of the powder to see if it's good, load some loads using the same components but increase the amount of Longshot used. If this results in better performance, then you have your answer. If you still get squibs, then maybe something is wrong with the powder.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:39 pm 
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was the load listed in the book with a roll crimp?
a roll crimp will lower pressures about 1,000-1,500 psi.
if your rolling along at like 5-6K to begin with and you have a light crimp or not as deep of a roll crimp [shrug] you can see where that'd go.

think about it like downloading H-110 in a 357 or 44mag, or loading it with a light or no crimp.
you get that same kind of pook and unburnt powder all over the place there too, unless you get unlucky and the bullet stops and the powder re-ignites.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:44 am 
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Hal4son wrote:
Goldens Always wrote:
Hal4son wrote:
What is the actual details of your recipe? Powder grains, wad shot weight.


New Cheddite hull and primer, 28 gr Longshot, WAA12R substitute from Clay Busters, 16 gauge Circle Fly wad, 535 grs Bismuth #5, over shot wad, roll crimp.


Insufficient pressure for ignition. You are running 3.4 grains under the starting load on hodgdonreloading.com That load is only generating 7,200 psi.

This would be my guess. +1
Dont forget, those pressures are averages,
Ulysses wrote:
Longshot is a very slow burning powder. Slow burning powders are not very good unless you're loading heavy loads with adequate to high pressure.
Yeah, i tend to run powders at there max payload. Less bloopers. I make the shot do the work. Not the speed

I recall using some Green Dot years ago to load some light target loads. Although the loads exited the barrel and broke a few clay targets, they left a lot of unburned powder in the bore of the gun, and Green Dot is considerably faster burning than Longshot.

As a test of the powder to see if it's good, load some loads using the same components but increase the amount of Longshot used. If this results in better performance, then you have your answer. If you still get squibs, then maybe something is wrong with the powder.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:17 am 
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Where did you get the recipe that calls for a 16 gauge wad inside a 12 gauge hull?? You need to stick to published loads from reputable sources and not deviate. What you describe is what you'll get when you go off on your own...


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:54 am 
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Goldens Always wrote:
I had them tested


So, all of those shells performed as they should have? How many of that batch of shells have you fired? Did they all performed as they should have? IF the answers to those questions are "yes", "a lot" and "yes", I would guess you had a case of bad luck. Bad primers, powder got contaminated in the hull or even a cocked wad.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:01 am 
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YevetS wrote:
Goldens Always wrote:
I had them tested


So, all of those shells performed as they should have? How many of that batch of shells have you fired? Did they all performed as they should have? IF the answers to those questions are "yes", "a lot" and "yes", I would guess you had a case of bad luck. Bad primers, powder got contaminated in the hull or even a cocked wad.

Steve


Probably a few dozen or more have been fired. Actually, now that I think about it, I shot a couple rounds of trap with them too. So, somewhere just south of 100 I would say. Two failures.

I'm wondering if there might be some quality control issues with the Cheddite hulls or primers. That's why I asked earlier if anyone else had experienced this. It will be interesting to see if this gets worse with colder temperatures. Also, I rechecked my notes, 30 grs of powder, not 28 as I said earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:09 am 
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Bailey Boat wrote:
Where did you get the recipe that calls for a 16 gauge wad inside a 12 gauge hull?? You need to stick to published loads from reputable sources and not deviate. What you describe is what you'll get when you go off on your own...


The fiber was suggested here on this forum (and three other sources) as a way of filling a case for a proper crimp.

Explain how a fiber wad in a plastic wad cup will cause powder to fail? That makes no sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:28 am 
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Goldens Always wrote:
Explain how a fiber wad in a plastic wad cup will cause powder to fail? That makes no sense to me.


If it got damp.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:33 am 
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YevetS wrote:
Goldens Always wrote:
Explain how a fiber wad in a plastic wad cup will cause powder to fail? That makes no sense to me.


If it got damp.

Steve


No chance of that, but even so, the fiber is up in the shotcup, a good 1/3 of an inch, maybe 1/2" from the powder.

I'm still trying to process how the pressure issue could even work but that and faulty cases or primers are the only two things in the running right now. I'm not a big fan of either of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Before you start tossing out good components......

The hull has nothing to do with this problem unless there is oil/moisture in them.

The same for the primers.

Both have proven themselves over many years as being solid components.

While I have to agree that this load is not a match made in heaven, because Longshot is at it's best with heavy/fast loads, there is something else going on.

If this were me, I would deprime the cases and reprime with fresh primers and try 10 loads. If that doesn't work try a fresh batch of powder.

Something is amiss with one or the other or both the primer or the powder.

Be absolutely sure that there is not oil/moisture in the hulls/wads or the reloading machine.

Be certain that the powder measure assembly, bushings, bars, drop/rammer tubes and anything else that the powder/primers come in contact with are dry and clean.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:35 pm 
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Mark, I could believe that the primer or the hull has an occluded flash channel, but the primer blew the wad halfway down the bore, so I doubt that is it. But it's all that I could think of on that end.

Since I have shot nearly 100 of these and only 2 have failed, I think reloading 10 will not tell me much. It would be a real PITA to do also.

Next time I'll be going back to 32 grs


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:59 pm 
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What type of loaded are you using? Seems night unlikely, but did the wad get in before the powder? If plastic wad went in then powder then fiber filler wad stack height and hence crimp would have been fine but no powder ignition. Just a thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:31 pm 
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Flyn'dutchman wrote:
What type of loaded are you using? Seems night unlikely, but did the wad get in before the powder? If plastic wad went in then powder then fiber filler wad stack height and hence crimp would have been fine but no powder ignition. Just a thought.


All done with hand tools. Every charge of powder and shot was individually weighed on a digital scale. Crimped on a drill press.

In both failures, when the case was pulled from the chamber, the unburned powder fell out and into the lump holes in the lock requiring gun disassemble before the guns would close again. The wads were stuck in the barrel, 1/2 up. So, the powder was definitely below the wad where is should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:34 pm 
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Many things can impede the powder to ignite properly. Usually random errors (or events) tend to cancel but they can be cumulative in their effect. I have to agree with Ulysses that insufficient pressure for a proper powder burn is the probable culprit. There are other possibilities but if I would have to guess, I would say insufficient pressure every time!


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:04 pm 
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geometric wrote:
Many things can impede the powder to ignite properly. Usually random errors (or events) tend to cancel but they can be cumulative in their effect. I have to agree with Ulysses that insufficient pressure for a proper powder burn is the probable culprit. There are other possibilities but if I would have to guess, I would say insufficient pressure every time!


Well, I don't have a better answer but I'm still trying to wrap my head around where this pressure needed to burn is supposed to come from when the powder hasn't burned yet. It does seems like a cart ahead of the horse to me...


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:31 pm 
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Golden Always,

Doubtful that the primer flash was obstructed considering how those hulls are made, but anything is possible.

Cheddite primers are fairly stout, heck they light off Steel powder with no problem. Since these drove the wad halfway down the bore it ain't the primer.

It isn't the 2 grains of powder that created this problem. Something kept the powder from igniting.

That points to contamination of the powder.

The next question and this has no bearing on this problem just curious. What were the SD and EV of the velocity and pressure. That info should be on the load sheets, Tom Armbrust, Precision Reloading and White Labs provide the info with all tests, as I am assuming one of those sources shot the load for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:36 pm 
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Yes, it's from Armbrust. I'll have to check. I only gave him 5 rounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:07 pm 
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AVE=1227 SD=53
AVE=4750 SD=1100


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 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:02 pm 
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those numbers should tell you all you need to know.
4000 psi on the bottom end and 5200 on the top....




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