ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:00 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:26 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 369
Location: New Mexico
That kind of standard deviation on pressure says it clearly - you don't have enough powder to get a consistent combustion going that then proceeds to climb to the lower end of normal shotshell pressures.

Yes, it is quite possible that you have perfectly good powder, just not enough of it. As you add another grain or two, you will find SD's for BOTH velocity and pressure will fall as the average values of velocity and pressure raise.

You don't often get a safe load with low pressure and light shot payload with a powder made for magnum loads.

These kind of squib loads are very common in cowboy shooting where folks try to load ultra low shot weights and faster shotgun powders at minimal drop weights. There just is not enough RESTRICTION from the shot to let pressure build up. Shot and wad start moving, pressure drops, and the "flame dies out" - leaving a wad stuck in the forcing cone or barrel.

Internal smokeless powder ballistics in shotshells are hard to predict when you get out of the normal pressure ranges for shotshells - 7000 to 10,500 psi ((or so).

good luck, garrisonjoe




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:30 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 180
Damp hull?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:00 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 3726
Location: UK, England, Britain
Goldens Always wrote:
AVE=1227 SD=53
AVE=4750 SD=1100



This is why i tend to reload on the upper shotweight,
Cool info.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:31 am 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:17 am
Posts: 46
garrison joe, it seems the pressure thing is a the favorite explanation, so I'll have to settle for it, but it makes no sense that I need more powder to make the pressure to burn the powder.

Cookoff013, when these things go off (~98% of the time), ducks and pheasants die just fine. It is nice to shoot something low pressure in guns that are 100-140 yrs old. I did not intend to go this low, but that's how it turned out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:27 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 604
I load some low pressure hunting/clays ammo for an old damascus barrel 10 gauge. I've had similar failures when the temperatures drop and the dog is putting up roosters.

My advice would be to ditch the cheddite primers for such loads. Work up low pressure loads with a FED209A and they'll be a lot less likely to fail when you have your brush pants on.

_________________
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:31 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 369
Location: New Mexico
OK, take a charge of Longshot and lay it on a safe concrete surface and light it. It generates NO pressure does it? And it probably didn't burn all of the pile of powder, there's some left around the edge.

Imagine Longshot in a 10,000 PSI load. It starts off with the primer firing into the powder, and there's no pressure just before that. The shot strongly resists moving (inertia), so it acts like a pretty firm plug of the barrel, and the pressure builds up to 10K almost before the wad and shot hit the forcing cone. As shot and wad continue down the barrel, pressure drops off some (due to expansion of the combustion gases) BUT all the powder has already been burned by then.

Now assume there's no shot in the shell, due to loading mistake. Surely you have either loaded one like that or seen a buddy shoot a no-shot blooper. There's nothing substantial confining the pressure from what small amount of the powder gets hit by the flame of the primer. Yeah, there's a wad, and the crimp, but those can be moved just by the primer firing. OK, the full charge of powder was there in the shell, but most of it did not burn, and what amount did could not generate pressure because the wad was already moving.

So, you now can see that 50 pounds of pressure or so (just like the no constraining pressure in your sidewalk test above), doesn't start Longshot burning at normal (almost instant) speeds that you want in a shotshell.

But now remember back to what the properly loaded shell does. Just putting the right shot in the blooper shell, makes the shell perform beautifully. So, yes, internal ballistics of a progressively-burning powder is complex, but it it pretty predictable. And one of the major predictions that holds true is, if there is not enough powder in the shell and enough restriction caused by the shot, for that particular powder to get to it's bottom end of pressure range to burn completely, it's going to give you a blooper.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:14 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:43 pm
Posts: 2553
Location: PA Dutch Country
Mystery novels are great but this trickle of info when wanting help can be rather annoying and counterproductive. All this info should be in the original post.

Goldens Always wrote:
I have been rolling my own Bismuth loads lately. They are low pressure loads intended for vintage guns. Recently two roosters survived because when the trigger was pulled, there just a light "doink" and the shot never even left the barrel. Upon opening the gun, the barrel was plugged with the wad and after the hull with spent primer was removed, the powder fell back into the action preventing it from functioning until it has been cleaned.

My question is what could prevent the powder from igniting? The tempertures were warm both times (40s and 6os). The hulls are new Cheddites, primed at the factory. Powder is 28 grns of Hodgdon LongShot.

Any ideas?


Quote:
New Cheddite hull and primer, 28 gr Longshot, WAA12R substitute from Clay Busters, 16 gauge Circle Fly wad, 535 grs Bismuth #5, over shot wad, roll crimp.

No the powder did not get wet, but it was not a new can. It was tightly capped in its plastic can.

Has anyone else had problems with virgin, primed Cheddites not igniting the powder?

I had them tested and it is generating quite a bit less than that. And the same thing occured to me but after I thought a moment longer, I realized that can't be it, unless Longshot is a sentient powder.

garrisonjoe, every load was weighed on a digital scale.

The powder doesn't seem to have burned at all. If it fizzled before the rest of it started, what prevents fizzling in a larger charge? It's all the same at the beginning, no? It's not like the charge is so low that the burn has to jump across empty space to get to the next flake.

Probably a few dozen or more have been fired. Actually, now that I think about it, I shot a couple rounds of trap with them too. So, somewhere just south of 100 I would say. Two failures.

Also, I rechecked my notes, 30 grs of powder, not 28 as I said earlier.

the fiber is up in the shotcup, a good 1/3 of an inch, maybe 1/2" from the powder.

All done with hand tools. Every charge of powder and shot was individually weighed on a digital scale. Crimped on a drill press.

In both failures, when the case was pulled from the chamber, the unburned powder fell out and into the lump holes in the lock requiring gun disassemble before the guns would close again. The wads were stuck in the barrel, 1/2 up. So, the powder was definitely below the wad where is should be.

Yes, it's from Armbrust. I'll have to check. I only gave him 5 rounds.

AVE=1227 SD=53
AVE=4750 SD=1100

Cookoff013, when these things go off (~98% of the time), ducks and pheasants die just fine. It is nice to shoot something low pressure in guns that are 100-140 yrs old. I did not intend to go this low, but that's how it turned out.


2% fizzle rate in the field does not surprise me after all that info is divulged.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:43 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
Posts: 604
cookoff013 wrote:
Goldens Always wrote:
AVE=1227 SD=53
AVE=4750 SD=1100



This is why i tend to reload on the upper shotweight,
Cool info.


Cookoff- I think it's cool info also. I think an SD of 53 FPS and 1100 PSI is outstanding considering it's on the edge of NOT going off.

Another quick thought on this loading if the OP is going to pursue more testing. I'd think about losing the 16 gauge filler in the shotcup and adding 12 gauge hard cards and fibre over the powder. (and under the WAA12R)

Removing the filler under the shot will increase pressure and adding cards under the WAA12R will increase resistence/pressure. I'd bet some Activ hulls :wink: that the combination would still come in as the low pressure load the OP seeks with better combustion.

Golden Always- You should call Tom Armbrust and ask his thoughts on your tested load. Tom has always been very helpful. He's a great resource and very knowledgeable.

_________________
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 19399
Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I think that the OP is far more interested in the back-and-forth banter and the "what ifs" than he is in solving the problem. Several people have suggested that he increase the powder load substantially to eliminate "low pressure" as the cause of the problem, but for some reason the OP would rather explore the "whys" and "what ifs" of how powder burns than take the simple step of increasing the powder charge and find out for sure if that's the problem.

_________________
Please post For Sale items in the proper Classified section.

Semi-Auto Classifieds is ONLY for Complete Semi-Auto shotguns.
Over/Under Classifieds is ONLY for Complete O/U shotguns.
Items other than a complete shotgun go in OTHER Classifieds.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:14 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:17 am
Posts: 46
garrisonjoe, I'll try your test tomorrow or Tuesday. I'll try a couple different powders. Your explanation is pretty good, but I'm still left with this nagging feeling that my cart is on the wrong end of my horse. But thanks very much for that.

Hal4son, I like your suggestion. Not sure if I will try it, but I certainly will consider it. Could putting wads under the WAA12R interfere with the wad's ability seal the case and barrel? In the FWIW column, I had shot a round of trap with some test loads using the 32 gr Hodgdon recipe, and a folded crimp. I shot these in a new-to-me Darne. If you are familiar with Darne's you know they are brutally strong but can also be extremely light. This one was both and weighed 6lbs even.

That round of trap was absolutely brutal. I shoot a lot of compepetion matches with many more shots in BPCR and BPTR matches, but they are kitten cats compared to that Darne with that load. I did not have a means of testing those loads for pressure, but they not only made me physically uncomfortable in the Darne, they were going to worry me a bunch in my Cashmore hammer gun, which was planned to be the main user for them. So, that's where the subsequent load came to be. Like I said, it kills wild birds just fine. When it goes off. BTW, I have the Activ hulls :)

Ulysses, you should have gone with your gut. You were and are wrong. Pretty much completely wrong. You may consider it a bad habit, but I tend to, in the immortal words of Michael Rosenzweig, "not accept explanations in absence of theory". Which loosely translates to, I don't like to accumulate facts, but rather understand them. If you don't understand the difference between knowing and understanding, that's your problem. I don't apologize for it.

Thanks guys. I will plan a new load, but not sure when it will happen or what it will be exactly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:51 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 369
Location: New Mexico
When I want a light recoil, low pressure load for hammer double 12 gauges, I load 1 ounce shot over enough Clays or Clay Dot (about 15 grains) to make about 1000 FPS. That kind of load burns cleanly and generates about 6000 PSI. If you want specifics for that, request it and I'll message you.

Yeah, I can shoot 100 rounds of sporting clays with my "Colt 1878 design double" and not hear my shoulder complain.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:54 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
Goldens Always wrote:
Dutch, where does the pressure come from? How can there be pressure before the charge is ignited?

Doesn't the chicken have to first cross the road to get to the other side?


The primer itself is an explosive charge and its job is not just to ignite the powder but also to establish the initial pressure in the chamber to get the powder into its fast burning pressure curve.
A shell loaded without powder but only a primer will often leave the wad stuck in the barrel. Take a look at that wad and notice the shot pellet dents in the plastic under the shot.

Black powder on the other hand only needs to be ignited, a spark from a flint on steel will do just as well as a magnum primer.
Artillery often uses a booster or igniter charge that is ignited by the primer to get the main charge burning. The igniter charge was often black powder.

_________________
I finally figured out that lifting your head and not following through can ruin your score in a rifle match also.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:15 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 7517
Location: Central ND
Uh...... let's use common sense here.

IF you have a clean hull, a good primer, powder (any amount of any powder), a wad seated firmly on the powder, some shot amount with a reasonably good wad column height and a firm crimp, the round is chambered and hit by a firing pin with sufficient force to set off the primer, the powder in that hull is going to burn to some degree. It may not burn well enough to launch the payload the way you might want but it is going to burn the powder that is in that combustion chamber. In this case the powder did not even start to burn by all accounts given by the OP.

The amount of powder isn't the issue here.

Do I think this is a good load....nope not by a long shot, but this problem has nothing to do with the quality of the load.


A few things could be going on here....either the OP is a troll and is just trying to stir the pot or.....the powder was contaminated or........the powder did burn and the OP didn't identify that it was burned.......the OP is not giving all the facts because of lack of knowledge of the facts......or the OP is leaving out important facts.


Anyway you slice this we are all just beating a dead horse and we will probably never get to the bottom of this via posting on this forum.

Why? Because this problem, the way it has been offered makes no sense.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:07 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 180
dogchaser37 wrote:
Uh...... let's use common sense here.

IF you have a clean hull, a good primer, powder (any amount of any powder), a wad seated firmly on the powder, some shot amount with a reasonably good wad column height and a firm crimp,



IF you have a clean DRY hull...


In fifty years of reloading I had one of these. It was in an automatic so it was a real mess when all that powder fell back into the trigger mechanism.

My conclusion then was the hull was damp when it was loaded. That is still my conclusion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:27 am 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:17 am
Posts: 46
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
dogchaser37 wrote:
Uh...... let's use common sense here.

IF you have a clean hull, a good primer, powder (any amount of any powder), a wad seated firmly on the powder, some shot amount with a reasonably good wad column height and a firm crimp,



IF you have a clean DRY hull...


In fifty years of reloading I had one of these. It was in an automatic so it was a real mess when all that powder fell back into the trigger mechanism.

My conclusion then was the hull was damp when it was loaded. That is still my conclusion.


I think that is extremely unlikely in my case. There just wasn't opportunity for that to happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:31 pm
Posts: 2432
Mostly like user error with a hint of mechanical variance.

_________________
Never sell a gun you shoot well, no matter how ugly or unpopular.
Copyright 2020 by SEB7515. All Rights Reserved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Primer fails to ignite powder. Why?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:36 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:17 am
Posts: 46
Maybe I should just pull the trigger harder next time...




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: bbush, Bing [Bot], boxbird30, delaware_export, DeltaEliteMan*, DooFighter, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Maser, popcorn09, rickeroo, saddlerocker, Stuck-N-Kali, Tal/IL, ysr_racer


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice