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 Post subject: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:25 am
Posts: 10
I’m relatively new to reloading and to date have used just the Alliant reloading guide for 20 ga reloading as follows: 20/28 powder - AA hulls - Winchester 209 primer - Claybuster wad —
Like others I can now not locate any Winchester 209 primers. I have been able to purchase some Nobel 209 primers. My question is — Can i make a straight substitution of the Nobel for the Winchester primer?

To this point I’ve been given very different answers to this question. I called the Alliant powder help line and they said no —- the pressure is to high and they don’t have any data on doing this switch. I asked a very experienced shooter at my club and he said that he had reloaded about 80,000 rounds substituting the Nobel primer for the Winchester with no problems. In a short period of time I will run out of Winchester primers and would like to keep shooting. I only shoot recreationally.

I’d appreciate any advice. I don’t want to do anything unsafe.




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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2469
Location: Central NH
I would. I'd use the 15.7 gr, 1200 fps, load. I seriously doubt you'll raise the pressure over 2K pounds with a primer switch. That said, I'm guessing and I'm not saying you should do it.

If you're concerned, send some to Precision Reloading for testing. Then you'll know.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
Someone might be able to help you if you post how much 20/28 you are using and the amount of lead.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:25 am
Posts: 10
I’m currently using 15.7 grains of 20/28 powder - 7/8’s ounce shot and claybuster wads.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:25 am
Posts: 10
Painter —

Thanks for the suggestion regarding sending shell to Precision Reloading! I didn’t know this service was available and I will take advantage of it.

Very helpful to get suggestions from the more experienced!!


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
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Location: S.E. Wisconsin
I agree with painter, your load produces 9370 psi according to Alliant. Switching primers wont raise the psi enough to get near maximum specs.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:59 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6393
Location: Newton Kansas
Quote:
I’d appreciate any advice. I don’t want to do anything unsafe.


A good idea, so many others don't really care it seems.

Now, that said, it is REALLY HARD to ACTUALLY get to "unsafe" as in "blowing up your shotgun in your hands".

That said, your load, as it currently stands, is, IMO not nearly high enough that there is any way that that primer change sends the load up to Max Limits, let alone 10,000psi EVEN HIGHER into "getting unsafe".

I'd make that sub in a hearbeat and sleep just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2469
Location: Central NH
Arkoneputt wrote:
Painter —

Thanks for the suggestion regarding sending shell to Precision Reloading! I didn’t know this service was available and I will take advantage of it.

Very helpful to get suggestions from the more experienced!!


If you decide to send shells off for testing, It needs to be at least 6, and 10 is better...same price.
Both of the other posters have more experience than I, and it's pretty much unanimous that your substitution is safe. I'd save the money and use the testing service when you have to make a substitution that has a better chance of pushing your load past the limit.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:47 am 
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It also depends on what kind of shotgun you are using. If you are shooting your great grandfathers old side by side you might have to worry.If you are shooting a modern gun, then no worries. I have some shotguns that are tested up to 30,000 psi.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:09 pm 
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Location: Okeechobee, Florida
I have never used Nobel primers because a few years ago the shotgun shells were very poor. Fail to fire, delayed fire so that is my reason. It may have changed today, I don't know

I have used other Euro primers though as substitution with good luck. With that said be aware once you do use a Euro primer it will enlarge primer pocket by 0.001" or more with the result that Win 209 and other US primers will be loose to the point of falling out.

Also, Cheddite primers are said to have a harder steel primer and shorten the life of the lower firing pins in Browning O/U's and some other manufacturers. I have used nearly 10K Cheddite primers and replaced the firing pins in my Citori just recently for the third time.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:51 pm
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Location: Old North State
I have used Noble Sport primers in 20ga loads for years. I have read that the Noble 688 primers compare pretty closely to Winchester primers and that the Noble 686 primers compare pretty closely to Remington primers. That may or may not be true.

My loads are not very hot. I use recipes for Winchester, Remington, and Cheddite primers without giving it any thought. A Noble is not as hot as a Federal or CCI Magnum, and so if I am using a recipe that calls for either of those primers, I know the performance will not be quite the same.

After many thousands of Nobel primers and my laissez faire approach to primer substitution, I have never had a problem. But as noted above, these are not hot loads. My interest is minimizing recoil, so my charge weights are light and my velocity is never over 1200fps.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 2580
Location: San Jose, CA
I'd feel comfortable with the swap for the above reasons.

That said, testing is available.

I presume Tom Armbrust is still doing testing as well

Ballistics Research, 1108 W. May Ave, McHenry, IL 60051.

815-451-6649.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:08 am 
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wrfish wrote:
It also depends on what kind of shotgun you are using. If you are shooting your great grandfathers old side by side you might have to worry.If you are shooting a modern gun, then no worries. I have some shotguns that are tested up to 30,000 psi.


Which shotguns are tested at 30,000 psi?

Tom Armbrust is still doing shotshell pressure testing. I had some loads tested by him late last fall.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:26 am 
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I'd like to know which shotguns are proofed at 30,000 PSI also.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:45 am 
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Me too. The Fabarm L4s is proofed at 1630 bar. That’s the highest that I’ve seen. 1630 bar is approximately 23,000 psi

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:06 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 5820
Location: Northern Virginia
Arkoneputt wrote:
I’m currently using 15.7 grains of 20/28 powder - 7/8’s ounce shot and claybuster wads.


While swapping or substituting primers is not recommended....I know of a shooter, I won't say the name, who literally has loaded 1000's upon 1000's of that exact load, however, using a Fed 209A primer. He hasn't had any issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6393
Location: Newton Kansas
casonet wrote:
Me too. The Fabarm L4s is proofed at 1630 bar. That’s the highest that I’ve seen. 1630 bar is approximately 23,000 psi

Looks like that makes FOUR of us, at minimum.........



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