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 Post subject: The Dreaded PW cross plate failure with FAST STRONG FIX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 8
Bought a used 20 gauge 800B for $100.00 Wasn't expecting much but wanted to see what the PW buzz was about. I blew a LOT of time setting it up as the manual is I think not so decipherable, and in the case of the primer set up, straight out misinformation.

Long story short its working and working pretty well. Sometimes I get some cocked wads or they hang up on the hull and create havoc, but I will get the PW hull mouth expander for the depriming station to see if that helps.

I converted the primer ram to fixed variable height (uses the same set screw to set the depth) as the original set up didn't extend deep enough into the hulls to seat the wads.

While setting up the primer push rod I came across this breakage. (which Dano pointed out I did myself through ineptness, and I later confirmed from pieces on the floor)

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Fixed it today 2/19....see last post but here it is

Ponsness repair pics

Fixed the break using my MIG with a spool gun fitted with 0.030 wire Argon purge and some practice. It was anti climatic but I was nervous.

Aluminum fit up

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Mig weld

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Ground finish

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Slot cut

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Last edited by bubbapug1 on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:18 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
Posts: 5693
Location: Missoula, MT
Ponsness now uses a steel insert plate there. Get one and mill your casting to accept it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
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The insert and the bolts are on the cheap side (under $30 from PW), and it just comes down to if you have a mill/have a friend that has a mill to machine the crosshead for the insert and bolts to keep the cost down.


As for new cross plate with insert, they are $123 from PW instead.

https://www.reloaders.com/products/plus ... 3d1f&_ss=r


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:42 pm 
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bubbapug1 wrote:
I converted the primer ram to fixed variable height (uses the same set screw to set the depth) as the original set up didn't extend deep enough into the hulls to seat the wads.



Have to remember that the height of the primer ram in the primer housing itself, is dictated by a allen bolt above the height adjustement bolt and jam nut channel, on the bottom of the primer assembly.

So short version here, with primer assembly in hand, and the top section pressed down on the lower section to compress the two side springs, the height of the primer seating ram top, should be about a dime above the top of primer assembly to start with.

Hence to set the primer ram in the primer assembly correctly, you need to remove the bottom height adjustment bolt and jam nut, loosen the small allen bolt on the back side of the lower assembly , compress the two together that the springs will allow, then go up the bottom bolt height channel with allen wrench to thread the inner shaft allen bolt up or down to set the ram height, then lock the primer seating ram to the lower via the back side allen bolt.

Now you can reinstall the bottom height bolt and jam nut, and set the primer assembly to the needed height to flush the primers with the hull.

Although the newest primer assembly, same priciables in play.
Hence allen bolt #143 sets the height of the primer ram rod (148) and once the height of the ram is set correctly, then Allen bolt 140 hold the lower assembly to the ram. Without #143 allen bolt set correctly (say too low in the lower channel), then the ram rod will slip down with only allen 143 holding it in place in the lower assembly.
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I bring this up, since it looks like the primer ram is not adjusted correctly in the primer assembly to start with (its too low), and when you try to adjust the primer assembly up high enough to seat the primer correctly in the hull, spring compressed primer assembly is crashing out on the bottom of the U slot with the primer ram itself, compressed pressuring upon the bottom of the U slots (why you cracked the U slot in the first place).

The manual if you need it.
https://www.reloaders.com/products/800b-800c-manual


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:50 pm 
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Also, you are missing the .006" paper spacer shim stack that should be on the top of the center index post/under the center index cap so the cylinder does not bind on the index.


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Also primer feed roller bearing ramp need to be straightened, and then adjusted correct to the right as well.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 8
Dano, thanks. I was hoping you'd jump in.

What is the magic of buying a PW insert? Couldn't I just make one? Is it hardened steel?

I do have a mill I can use to make a shelf for the insert.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
Posts: 5693
Location: Missoula, MT
Friend of mine made one. No magic involved.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 pm
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Dano, when I realized what your were saying I woke up from bed, searched the garbage. and sure as day found the parts I had broken off the machine. I ruined a perfectly good machine through hubris

Now its going to take me 20 hours to fix and a few bucks to boot.

Thanks for catching my idiocy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:19 pm 
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No worries, and as you figured out, really want to have the learning curve down on the PW machines, before you buy one that is jacked way out of tune, and trying correct it in the dark isntead.

If you are in the Denver area, more that welcome to bring the machine over to the house so I can go through it to get it corrected/tuned, and give you crash course on the machine at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:31 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1300
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
I bet you don't do that again though.
and don't feel bad your not the first one to do that [or break anything else either] or buy something not knowing it was broke somewhere deep down inside.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:24 pm
Posts: 467
Location: NC
How can PW's be so complicated and a Mec is so basic and simple yet they both produce the same thing??


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
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Location: Missoula, MT
PW's are built like tanks. Once set up they don't tend to drift. You have to remember the 800b machines haven't been made for about 45 years. Bubba has had a lot of time to screw them up, not to mention lack of simple maintenance, not to mention how many tens of thousands of rounds this thing has put out in it's lifetime. Pretty amazing actually. For a few $ and a little time a 45 year old machine will be as good as new and ready for the next 45 years.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate deprimer failure with PIC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:00 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1300
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
yeah they are,, I have worn out a BT-99 [into a rattling twisting sloppy out of spec piece of metal] retired a rem-3200 trap gun plus reduced a win 1300 pump shotgun into nearly the same state as the bt-99 with my L/S-1000.

conversely it has needed 2 new plastic bushings, and the primer slide got broke during a move.
I think I've got my moneys worth out of it, and it's got at least that much more in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed it!!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 8
Fixed the break with my mig welder

Ponsness repair pics

Fixed the break using my MIG with a spool gun fitted with 0.030 wire Argon purge and some practice. It was anti climatic but I was nervous.


Aluminum fit up

Image

Mig weld

Image


Ground finish

Image


Slot cut

Image


Sure cost me a lot of time and energy. Hope I don't break it again. Maybe I have learned my lesson


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 Post subject: Re: Fixed it!!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 5680
bubbapug1 wrote:
Fixed the break with my mig welder

Ponsness repair pics

Fixed the break using my MIG with a spool gun fitted with 0.030 wire Argon purge and some practice. It was anti climatic but I was nervous.


Aluminum fit up

Image

Mig weld

Image


Ground finish

Image


Slot cut

Image


Sure cost me a lot of time and energy. Hope I don't break it again. Maybe I have learned my lesson



Might hold, so long as you adjust the primer seating rod correctly in height via is bottom allen set screw, so you not crashing top primer assembly max out against the lower assembly, to crack the U slot again.

Hence the only pressure that the U slot should be seeing, is just the bottom of the hull when the primer is being knocked out of the hull.

So with top and bottom of primer assembly housing pieces pressed together (so the springs are both fully compresses as well), this is the height that the primer seating rod in the primer assembly should be height adjusted too (hence about the thickness of a dime).


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This gives plenty of room for the primer ram rod to protrude as the primer assembly upper housing it being pressed down by the U slot, so the upper housing does not full bind up against the lower piece during spring compression (no gap between the two) by the U slot, so you don't break the U slide side walls again.

Also, since I can see the hole in the primer feed ram, not hard to break out a paper clip/spring wire to make a primer carrier hook. The way the hook works, is if the ram picks up a primer at the back stroke, but there is already a primer in the ram channel, it just pulls the extra primer back/while not pick up another primer from chute as you handle down, so you don't have a stack of two primers at the primer seating ram channel.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate failure with FAST STRONG FIX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:00 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 8
Thanks for the tips. I will certainly heed your warning on the primer seating heights!!! Not that I am against welding, just welding screw ups....

I filed the slot, and it seemed very sturdy with good weld penetration showing through the plate from the bottom. Wasn't sure how the aluminum cast material would behave but no issues.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate failure with FAST STRONG FIX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
Posts: 5693
Location: Missoula, MT
Why did you do that instead of inserting a steel plate? No criticisim, just curious. I'd think milling out a spot for a plate and screwing it in would be less problematic than trying to weld up an aluminum casting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate failure with FAST STRONG FIX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:07 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:43 pm
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Location: PA Dutch Country
Good fix bubba. It is always nice to develop skills.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate failure with FAST STRONG FIX
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 8
John the welding option was fastest. No fab of a steel plate, except a quick trace and grind on the aluminum bar stock. That took less than five minutes.

No disassembly and reassembly of the unit to fit the cross plate into a mill. That alone made me go the weld route

The weld itself probably took 10 seconds. The biggest single time consumer was removing the standard mig torch, retracting the steel wire from it, and plugging in the spool gun. I also took some like materials to test wire speed and power settings, along with setting up a small area purge dam. That prep stuff was 30 minutes at least.

Grinding was a few minutes. The penetration of the weld was very good as aluminum readily melts. It’s a strong joint. Not tempered like the casting but strong enough.

No holes to tap into the frame either.

So it was purely a time issue. Certainly the weld is stronger than four screws into a cast aluminum frame. The frame welded very nicely. Seems to be almost pure aluminum.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreaded PW cross plate failure with FAST STRONG FIX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
Posts: 5693
Location: Missoula, MT
For what its worth, the Ponsness instructions for the seating pin have it even higher than what dano523 shows. Higher isn't a problem, it just precludes the assembly from bottoming out on the crosshead and breaking the thin casting. Primer seating depth is set by adjusting the height of the assembly, not the seating post within the assembly. Their instructions show a 1/8" gap from the underside of the seating post head and the housing when fully compressed. Both of my ponsness machines (900, 800+) have from .210 to .220 from the top of the housing to the top of the post when fully compressed. (I've never adjusted them, they came that way from the factory)



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