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 Post subject: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 pm
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Please help me sleuth out this mystery...

I usually use Federal hulls and CCI primers for my 1 oz. loads, but being unable to find CCI or even Winchester primers, I bought some Fiocchi's my gun club had on the shelf. I found a recipe for these, Fiocchi hulls at 1 oz. loads (19 grains Red Dot powder).

Shooting the first 100, I got several light strikes. I got them on both the top and bottom barrel, and on both the first and second shot. Got some Federal factory 1 1/8 oz. loads from the car and no problems.

Before going out again, I cleaned the trigger assembly thoroughly. Shot a bunch of factory loads (Federals) again with no problem, then got a few light strikes on the Fiocchi reloads. I'd just give up on this reload recipe, but I've got about 800 primers I'd hate to waste.

Maybe there is some weird odd misalignment of the shell in the receiver. I don't think it is the gun (a 2019 Zoli Z-sport with probably between 5K - 8K rounds through it which I bought pre-owned).

I can post picture of the misfired shell or receiver, if that would help. Thanks for any thoughts or insights. This one has me baffled.




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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:56 am 
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I know that this will sound odd but it is important. Does your reloading machine hold the hull by the rim while repriming?

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:11 am 
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Unless you’re dishing the bottom of the brass when setting the primers, I’m guessing your “strike” is just fine, the primers are hard.

Examine the bottom of the shells with a straight edge, that should rule in or out if dishing is the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:32 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
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Location: New Mexico
A picture or two of the loads which had light strikes would be very helpful. Also clearly tell us what primer is being used in your reload (Is this a Fiocchi primer?)

Sometimes this can be either the primer too-deeply seated in the hull. Or head of hull being dished while loading. Or even a deeply set primer cup inside of the properly seated battery cup, which is a factory defect.

Shotgun primers have a primer cup and battery cup as two main parts of the container that makes the complete primer. The inner primer cup holds the priming compound and is what should be dented by the firing pin. The outer battery cup is the part which fits snugly into the primer recess in the hull, and should be holding the primer cup closely enough to flush with the hull's rear surface for the firing pin to strike and ignite the primer compound.

Since you have problems just with these Fiocchi reloads, but not with Federal factory loads, and with both top and bottom barrels, that isolates the problem pretty well to either the primers or your loading technique and equipment.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:08 am 
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I've loaded nothing but fios for years and never had an issue. Friend of mine also loads them and hes having top barrel problems in his newer 682 gold e. He never had issues in his old 682s.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 pm
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dogchaser37 wrote:
I know that this will sound odd but it is important. Does your reloading machine hold the hull by the rim while repriming?


Not really. It's more of a flat platform with a hole where the new primer sits. The hull presses down around the primer. The platform in which the primer sits is on a spring, so it compresses a bit when I press the hull down. I'll post a picture of the primer step on my press...


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Last edited by Eric719 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:08 pm 
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I think what dogchaser is wondering is how is the hull held while priming. The MECS have a shaft that goes inside the hull and pushes the hull down over the primer by pressing on the basewad. On a Ponsness, for example, the hull is held by a die and the primer is pushed up into the hull, so there is opportunity there to dish the base of the hull if something is wrong because the basewad is unsupported.

Fio primers are slightly larger than American made primers so it can take a bit more force to seat them on a hull that has only seen American made primers.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 pm
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garrisonjoe wrote:
A picture or two of the loads which had light strikes would be very helpful. Also clearly tell us what primer is being used in your reload (Is this a Fiocchi primer?)

Sometimes this can be either the primer too-deeply seated in the hull. Or head of hull being dished while loading. Or even a deeply set primer cup inside of the properly seated battery cup, which is a factory defect.

Shotgun primers have a primer cup and battery cup as two main parts of the container that makes the complete primer. The inner primer cup holds the priming compound and is what should be dented by the firing pin. The outer battery cup is the part which fits snugly into the primer recess in the hull, and should be holding the primer cup closely enough to flush with the hull's rear surface for the firing pin to strike and ignite the primer compound.

Since you have problems just with these Fiocchi reloads, but not with Federal factory loads, and with both top and bottom barrels, that isolates the problem pretty well to either the primers or your loading technique and equipment.

good luck, garrisonjoe


I think you are onto something garrisonjoe. Yes, these are Fiocchi 616 (.209 type) primers. Here's a couple picture of shells that didn't fire compared to ones that did...


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:48 pm 
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I have reloaded a lot of different primer brands and hull brands, from 10 ga. down thru .410.

I have seen folks with concave shotshell heads when they used a reloading machine that supports the hull by the rim.

There is no seating depth for primers with shotshells. The hull primer pocket is "supposed to" be the stop.

But seating the primer below the face of the metal head :w

You got me on how that happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:05 pm 
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I am not familiar with how a Pacific 155 resizes, so bear with me. IF it has a die system similar to a MEC 600jr., and it is set too low you could be smashing the hull rim enough on the Fio hull to decrease your head space. I know this can happen on a 600Jr. When I set these up I always insure I can just slip a nickel between the base and die at handle full down.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
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Location: New Mexico
The Pacific 155 uses an internal primer seating rod, which presses down on the base wad to push primer into hull against a stationary anvil down in the spring loaded primer guide platform.

Try backing off the primer seating rod a turn at a time until you just seat those primers with the rim of the battery cup flush with the metal base (also called the head). That will raise the primer cup face up to be almost flush with the metal base. Then, loads should fire 100% Make the primer look like the primer-after-firing picture!

That old 155 is a good solid loader, even if it is a one-shell-at-a-time press.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:29 pm 
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The metal head/basewad, along with the primer battery cup determines the depth of the primer. You would have to be about standing on that reloading machines handle to seat a shothell primer too deep. If you don't seat the primer completely, you will make the problem worse, because the firing pin strike will try to bottom the primer in the primer pocket.

........and in this case, some primers are too deep and some aren't? So that isn't making a whole bunch of sense to adjust the reloader.

Please enlighten me.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
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OP has shown a picture of one seated primer, it is obviously too deep (below the metal hull head/cap). Adjusting the primer seater rod is the obvious fix for that. Until we have more information about something else wrong.

Having used a clone of the 155 (the Honey Bair), that is how a change-over to a new shell (Fiocchi instead of his normal Federal hulls) would normally be done, to adapt to a possible different base wad profile.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 pm
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garrisonjoe wrote:
The Pacific 155 uses an internal primer seating rod, which presses down on the base wad to push primer into hull against a stationary anvil down in the spring loaded primer guide platform.

Try backing off the primer seating rod a turn at a time until you just seat those primers with the rim of the battery cup flush with the metal base (also called the head). That will raise the primer cup face up to be almost flush with the metal base. Then, loads should fire 100% Make the primer look like the primer-after-firing picture!

That old 155 is a good solid loader, even if it is a one-shell-at-a-time press.

good luck, garrisonjoe


Thanks for the reply, garrisonjoe, here is what the primer looks like after adjusting the primer seating rod one turn. To me, it looks like the copper colored battery cup (if I'm using the terminology correctly) does seem to be more flush with the head. You can still see a tiny bit of daylight between the battery cup and primer cup, but that seems to be the way these are made. I might try one more turn of adjustment and see how they look.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:09 pm 
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Your primer picture now looks perfectly flush. Load a box full and hit the range.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
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Its been a know problem with some older Fiocchi primers too thick or hard steel causing FTF.
I used thousands Fio’s no problem then early last yr. I started having FTF problems. Sent my F3 in for service they said no problem its a primer problem. I connected Fiocchi they said there was a past problem. I had 2 cases sent them the lot #’s they checked said I probably had primers made during the time frame when bad. I sent in receipts and in about a week I got a check for $249.

Problem is It was about when everything was selling out and I have not been able to replace 10K of primers.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:08 pm 
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You folks can do anything you want, but primers are supposed to be seated firmly in place, to the bottom of the primer pocket. You might have some bad primers or bad hulls. Leaving primers not bottomed in the primer pocket is incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:05 pm 
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Quote:
Leaving primers not bottomed in the primer pocket is incorrect.


Sorry, but that is the seating procedure for centerfire cartridge cases, which have a solid bottom to the pocket. The legs of a centerfire anvil have to be in contact with the bottom of that pocket so a strike by firing pin against the cup will not have the anvil moving because of the impact.

There is often no solid bottom to a shotshell primer pocket. So there is nothing to bottom out on in a shotshell primer pocket. The anvil on a shotshell primer is carried and prevented from motion during impact by the battery cup itself. So it works even if the flash-hole end of the primer is "floating in air". There's a real good cutaway drawing of shotshell primer internals in the Lyman Shotshell manual, 5th edition, page 44.

Preventing motion of the primer when struck by firing pin is why a shotshell primer has a flange on the battery cup. That flange is seated into the slight recess around the primer pocket such that the flange ends up flush with the metal case head. When seated to be flush, the flange (and rest of primer) cannot move forward as the firing pin hits the primer.

There are two important goals of the primer seating operation. First, seat it deep enough that the flange on the battery cup does not protrude any amount from the surface of the metal hull base (because the battery cup will hang up on loader platens, and standing breeches of hinge action shotguns, and the battery cup would be free to move a little when the firing pin strikes). And second, don't seat it deeper than flush by putting enough pressure on the primer to allow the flange of the battery cup to deform. Because if that happens, the primer cup surface moves into the case head, away from the surface of the head, and ultimately the firing pin cannot make a good strike on the primer to fire it off.

Here's the primer seating instructions from page 81 of the Lyman Shotshell Loading Handbook, 5th Edition:
"It's battery cup should be flush with the case head."

And from RCBS Handbook of Shotshell Reloading, 2nd Ed, page 20:
"Check to make sure the primer sits flush or a little below the level of the face of the case head. "

From the Hornady/Pacific 366 loader instruction manual on page 8:
"The primer should be flush with the case head."

I believe those folks are sufficient authorities on safe practices of shotshell reloading to be followed without worry.

So, seat your shotshell primers flush, no less and no more.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:50 pm 
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To be honest, I have never had a shotshell primer that sat anything but flush with the metal head. MEC machines have no adjustment, you seat primers tight to the bottom of the primer pocket. Done.

As I said, you can do what you want.

And you are incorrect about centerfire primers, they are also supposed to be inserted tight to the bottom of the primer pocket. They make primer pocket reamers for benchrest, so that each primer is exactly the same depth, which makes each strike by the firing pin the same for each round.

When you set a primer anything but in the bottom of the primer pocket, the firing pin is hitting each primer different. It is also allowing for the firing pin blow to be softened as the pin will try to drive the primer to the bottom of the pocket before or while it lights off the primer, shotshell or centerfire. Not good.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi primer/hull light strike mystery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:06 pm 
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Well, you may have to read posts more carefully.

The support point for a centerfire cartridge primer is the bottom of the primer pocket. That's what was said here:
Quote:
the seating procedure for centerfire cartridge cases, which have a solid bottom to the pocket. The legs of a centerfire anvil have to be in contact with the bottom of that pocket so a strike by firing pin against the cup will not have the anvil moving because of the impact.


The support point for a shotshell primer is the battery cup flange seating into the recess around the primer pocket.

good luck, garrisonjoe




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