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 Post subject: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:14 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am
Posts: 97
In the interest of conserving my Win 209 primer supply I have been using up a couple thousand Cheddites on my 410 AA HS reloads. For the first time I'm starting to see some pierced primers. I could imagine some negatives about this but could someone enlighten me about the problems associated with pierced primers. By the way, I'm shooting 410 in a Caesar Guerini Summit 20 w/ Briley 410 tubes. Thanks




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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:19 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:11 pm
Posts: 193
Heat hardening of the tip of the firing pin from the pierced primer causes the tip of the firing pin to chip away. Eventually you get enough damage for FTF. If you shoot enough pierced primers you could actually see some damage to the breech face around the pins, but I would think this would take a long time to occur.

On some guns, the cost of having to replace firing pins will exceed any savings on the cheaper primers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:24 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2507
Location: Central NH
Alleycat wrote:
In the interest of conserving my Win 209 primer supply I have been using up a couple thousand Cheddites on my 410 AA HS reloads. For the first time I'm starting to see some pierced primers. I could imagine some negatives about this but could someone enlighten me about the problems associated with pierced primers. By the way, I'm shooting 410 in a Caesar Guerini Summit 20 w/ Briley 410 tubes. Thanks

The biggest problem with pierced primers is firing pin erosion. It's a huge probblem with Brownings, and as I understand, no less with CG's. It's usually with the lower barrel, although I've seen minor erosion on upper pins.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:15 am
Posts: 23378
Location: Knoxville, Tn area Nyuck, Nyuck
Call Guerini and ask the cost for replacing firing pins. Then you have to consider that vs the savings with Cheddites or Nobel Sport primers' I had a supplier get some WW 209 primers last week, maybe they will start showing up a little better.

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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:35 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am
Posts: 97
I've shot about 1000 so far and only have 1000 Cheddite left which I would like to use up and be done with them. I know you don't have a crystal ball but do you suspect that as few 1500 rounds is life threatening to the firing pins? At this point firing pins are easier to get that Win 209.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:15 am
Posts: 23378
Location: Knoxville, Tn area Nyuck, Nyuck
Alleycat wrote:
I've shot about 1000 so far and only have 1000 Cheddite left which I would like to use up and be done with them. I know you don't have a crystal ball but do you suspect that as few 1500 rounds is life threatening to the firing pins? At this point firing pins are easier to get that Win 209.

The more you use the worse the problem gets, the firing pin erosion tends to pierce the primers more readily as it gets worse further accelerating the erosion and so forth.
You will start seeing evidence of the damage in the strike mark in the primer as a pimple in the dimple. :oops: :lol:

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Let us endeavor so to live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:26 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 568
Location: New Mexico
If you have a pump or semi-auto gun in which those Cheddites can be fired, it would be a damage-free and highly reliable way to use them. Or trade them to someone who can use them.

I have seen four guns with firing pins damaged in the last 2 years from using Cheddites in reloads - all those were Browning O/Us.

Quote:
do you suspect that as few 1500 rounds is (likely to damage) the firing pins?

Cheddites tore up a set of factory Browning FPs in a new Citori within 500 rounds of my reloads, which were fairly mild target loads. Bottom pin was eroded badly, to point of not firing shells. Top pin was visibly pitted but still functioning when I replaced both FPs. So, it is very possible.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:25 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 177
Location: Los Angeles, CA
garrisonjoe wrote:
If you have a pump or semi-auto gun in which those Cheddites can be fired, it would be a damage-free and highly reliable way to use them. Or trade them to someone who can use them.

I have seen four guns with firing pins damaged in the last 2 years from using Cheddites in reloads - all those were Browning O/Us.

...

Cheddites tore up a set of factory Browning FPs in a new Citori within 500 rounds of my reloads, which were fairly mild target loads. Bottom pin was eroded badly, to point of not firing shells. Top pin was visibly pitted but still functioning when I replaced both FPs. So, it is very possible.

good luck, garrisonjoe


Question: how many brownings did you see where cheddites had not ruined the firing pins? i ask, because I own a browning, and also a bunch of cheddite primers.

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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:40 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:52 am
Posts: 535
Location: Eastern Kentucky
So far I've changed firing pins on a couple of Brownings, a, Kolar, and a couple of semi autos. Pins for Brownings and Kolar were about $25 an took about ten minutes


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:41 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 568
Location: New Mexico
Quote:
So, it is very possible.


Never did I say that EVERY Browning O/U was GOING to have problems with Cheddite primers pitting the bottom FP. Just that I have seen several that did. VERY few fellows who DON'T have problems show me their guns to say "Look-ee here, this Browning's been running fine!"

Your experience is the same that I have, in that not EVERY gun will be badly affected. That DOES NOT reduce the facts that damage is done to some guns, nor reduce the cost and time for repairs on those guns.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:05 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:15 am
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Location: Knoxville, Tn area Nyuck, Nyuck
garrisonjoe wrote:
Quote:
So, it is very possible.


Never did I say that EVERY Browning O/U was GOING to have problems with Cheddite primers pitting the bottom FP. Just that I have seen several that did. VERY few fellows who DON'T have problems show me their guns to say "Look-ee here, this Browning's been running fine!"

Your experience is the same that I have, in that not EVERY gun will be badly affected. That DOES NOT reduce the facts that damage is done to some guns, nor reduce the cost and time for repairs on those guns.

good luck, garrisonjoe

While the gun might be working fine, if we look at the firing pins, they might still be eroded to heck and still getting it done. The time will come!

_________________
if you love the ole USA https://youtu.be/f22JcsKmnYg If you were Military, enjoy

Let us endeavor so to live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:25 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:00 pm
Posts: 1135
Location: north carolina
On another side of looking at this, I am seeing more cheddite primers available than Winchester so it might be the only primer you can find to reload with. When you have options to choose from I might say hold out for the primer of choice but most don't have that option now.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:17 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:11 pm
Posts: 3611
Location: Afton, VA
Cheddites will eat the firing pins in my three Browning's. After just one pierced primer I can see visible damage. My Remington 1100 digests them with no problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:00 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2507
Location: Central NH
I've replaced pins in 5 Brownings in the past year or so, for members of my club. They all shoot mostly Wallyworld Federal, and Herter's, previous manufacture, ammo.

Who knows which ammo has the Cheddite's in it, but it definitely is a thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:57 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:46 am
Posts: 395
Replaced the pins on my Browning after about 10,000 rounds of mostly pierced Ched primers, pins were eroded a little but still working just fine. I replaced them since I tore the action apart for service and to check the pins. Firing pins aren't that expensive and easy to change on about any over under shotgun and well worth it for the savings cost of Ched over other primers. Seems to me there is a lot of speculation about pierced primers from guys who really have no experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:01 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 568
Location: New Mexico
Lots of evidence about pierced primers from lots of folks replacing firing pins, seems to me.
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:55 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:06 pm
Posts: 21
If you get new pins on some of the brownings and they still pierce concider shortening them. Replaced my sons crossover with new J&P springs and pins and within about 3000 rounds they were pitted again. Having looked at the primers the Noble sports were causing the problems. Took the factory pins and shortened them 10 thousandths repolished they work fine. Cheddite primers were getting pierced too. Couple of hundred rounds later and all is well yet. I believe a combination of longer pins and stronger springs that I got in a kit were the culprit.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:33 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:04 pm
Posts: 667
This seems relatively straight forward - load a few boxes, shoot a few boxes, check for pierced primers. If it's an O/U it's not like you're tossing empties all over the place. If your Browning pierces the primers, don't load anymore or keep them for SAs and pumps.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:19 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:45 pm
Posts: 116
I’ve noticed pierced primers with my Guerini and my 16 ga model 12. As far as I know the firing pin in the model 12 is the original from 1941, I plan on ordering a replacement.

I just bought a Beretta 28/410 combo and I’ll be keeping a watch on those also.

I’ve bought both Winchester and Cheddite primers in the past, but due to availability I now have quite a few Cheddite’s. I’ve used thousands without replacing a firing pin yet. After 80 years the model 12 doesn’t count.

Hopefully I won’t see any with the Beretta.

If other primers become available I’d buy them, but for now I’ll use what I have.


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 Post subject: Re: Pierced Primer Question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:21 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am
Posts: 97
As most know Cheddite is a very large maufacturer of not only primers but shotgun shells used primarily overseas. I have no doubt that their primers cause firing pin damage but what I don't understand is why the rest of the world is tolerant of a product that can cause damage to fine guns. This goes for Noble as well if they are guilty of same. Italian guns dominate target shooting overseas. Do owners of those nice guns just continually repalace firing pins and just live with that nonsense? What am I missing here?




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