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 Post subject: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
Has anyone done a comparison of fiochi 616 primers to a Winchester 209? I’m down to 1,600 win 209’s but I have 10,000 616’s I had put back for a rainy day. The load I’ve been loading is 7/8 oz with 16.3 grains of WSF in a 20 ga Win HS hull with WAA20 claybuster and a win 209 primer. Chronograph says it averages 1,171 fps. Over the weekend I was able to pick up 16# of WSF. Still feeling like I won the lottery....anyway I’m in the preliminary stages of switching over to the Fiochi 616 from the Win 209. Any prior experience would be greatly appreciated.

Willie




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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:10 pm 
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If you have a chronograph, you can load a few and try it. WSF being a ball powder are normally a bit tougher to ignite. All you can do is try the Fiocchi 616's, at least you have the hotter of the two Fiocchi primers.

I hope all goes well.

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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:07 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
Thank you for taking the time to reply sir. I really like that load.... who knows maybe some Win 209’s will show up before I run out. I’m just starting to get ready in case sourcing primers stays the same....
Edit to add. I have loaded the same load in gun clubs. They are markedly snappy and chronograph 1231. I like the milder load in the HS hull a lot better.


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 Post subject: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1298
I often use the same recipes for12 ga. loads swapping the win 209 with Fio 616. However a couple yrs ago fio had a problem with the steel which caused FTF issues.
If you switch load about 50 to shoot and see how they do.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:35 pm 
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Your current load is kind of up there as far as pressure. I don't know how using the Fio 616 will react. For me, it would be a candidate to have tested before I shot any. Doubly so if you are shooting them in tubes.

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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:33 am
Posts: 348
Location: Iowa
Graf and Sons had listed a primer substitution chart, and according to them you can use the 616 for W209. Google search is your friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:56 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
Bob_K wrote:
Your current load is kind of up there as far as pressure. I don't know how using the Fio 616 will react. For me, it would be a candidate to have tested before I shot any. Doubly so if you are shooting them in tubes.


I am not shooting in tubes. Loading is for a 20 ga citori. I’m not sure what you are calling pressure that is up there.

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SAAMI pressure spec for 20 ga is 12,000. Easing the powder charge up till I got the velocity I was looking for left me well in the lower range of advertised powder charges and I should be 1,200-1,300 psi below SAAMI max pressure. Net result is a soft shooting, clean burning load that throws exceptional patterns and well below SAAMI according to published data in Lymans 5th. Chronographed velocities mirrored the data and seem to indicate I am in the sweet spot where I wanted to be with this load. The question I am interested in is if the Fiochi 616 is a hotter primer than the Win 209.

Willie


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Last edited by Willie T on Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:59 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
D McMillen wrote:
Graf and Sons had listed a primer substitution chart, and according to them you can use the 616 for W209. Google search is your friend.



Thank you for taking the time to provide me with that information sir. It is greatly appreciated!
Willie


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:01 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
Fitasc2 wrote:
I often use the same recipes for12 ga. loads swapping the win 209 with Fio 616. However a couple yrs ago fio had a problem with the steel which caused FTF issues.
If you switch load about 50 to shoot and see how they do.


Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:55 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:34 pm
Posts: 510
Location: Boerne, Texas
I am loading the remington gun club hulls, remington rxp20 wad, fiocchi 616 primer and 17.5 grains of WSF powder. This load is published using a winchester 209, 1200 fps, 10,600 psi.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 474
D McMillen wrote:
Graf and Sons had listed a primer substitution chart, and according to them you can use the 616 for W209.


I can't find that. Link please.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:22 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 158
Thank you skeet. I may need to pick up some rxp 20’s and give them a go with the Fiochi primers. I’ve got 1,000’s of gun club hulls squirreled away. The Winchester wad is a snug fit in the Remington hull. I think that tighter fit accounts for the snappy recoil and higher velocity in the gun clubs with the WAA 20. Like so many others, I love the way the Remington hulls load.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:36 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:44 pm
Posts: 3
I started substituting Fiocchi 616 for Win209 when the primer crunch started. Glad I scored 5 sleeves of Fiocchi considering the shortage of all 209 primers. I load the following and have not seen any difference in performance for skeet. Have not chrono'd the loads, but at low pressures I am not too concerned. Yes, I shoot tubes in my K80 and 20 and 28 barrels in my K20.

410
STS hulls
17.3gr Alliant 300MP
Claybuster CB5050-410HS
1/2oz

28
AA HS hulls (Claybuster CB1034-28 wads)
AA CF (Claybuster CB5034-28HS wads)
13.1gr Alliant 20/28
3/4oz


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:05 pm
Posts: 160
My only comment is that in my experience, the Fio 616 is larger in diameter than Win 209 and will stretch primer pockets in win AA (CF) cases. Once a 616 has been used in a case, a 209 will be loose and the primer pocket will need tightening if a 209 is to be used subsequently.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:26 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:44 pm
Posts: 3
That is true, once I load 616 I stick with them. Not hard to remember once you see how a 209 goes back in the pocket. Loose as a goose, but I just load more of them until the hull is toast.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:56 am 
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Willie T

The ‘pressure is up there’ Bob_K is referring to is in regard to 20 ga tubes in a 12 ga barrel, or 28 ga tubes in a 20 ga barrel. Your situation doesn’t apply because you’re using a 20 ga gun.

FWIW, the chambers in the above mentioned tubes are rather thin, and Briley and Kolar like reloaders to keep pressures at 10,000psi and below, actually maybe just below! Tubes chambers have cracked with loads at higher pressures. I’ve read the letter from the tube company to a friend in which they said they wouldn’t be repairing a chamber without charging in the future. His loads were too hot, Green Dot in 7/8 oz loads.

Good luck with your primer swap.

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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 474
WIflytier wrote:
Briley and Kolar like reloaders to keep pressures at 10,000psi and below,


Good luck with that.

Alliant's online guide shows that with Unique in a 20 gauge AA case there is only one load at 1200 fps under 10,000 psi, and that is with the expensive and almost impossible to purchase RXP20 wad.

Hodgdon's online guide shows that with Universal in a 20 gauge AA case there is only one load at 1200 fps under 10,000 psi, and that is with the expensive and almost impossible to purchase RXP20 wad and Remington 209P primer combination.


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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:40 am 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
WIflytier wrote:
Briley and Kolar like reloaders to keep pressures at 10,000psi and below,


Good luck with that.

Alliant's online guide shows that with Unique in a 20 gauge AA case there is only one load at 1200 fps under 10,000 psi, and that is with the expensive and almost impossible to purchase RXP20 wad.



You should look further through Alliants guide and check out 20/28.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:11 am 
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I load a lot if 3/4 oz 12 ga with Extra Lite. I didn’t have the primer that was specified so I called Alliant about a substitute and was told that I could use any 209 primer that I wanted

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 Post subject: Re: Swapping Primers #2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:07 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:31 pm
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Interesting difference in published loads. Hodgdon says
WinchesterHS 16.5grWSF Win. 209 WAA20 11,200 PSI 1,200fps

And I don't know if Fiochi's are the same as Winchesters..



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