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 Post subject: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:13 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:18 pm
Posts: 2
Greetings all,

First, let me say how much I appreciate all the wisdom I've gleaned from these pages. Thank you all.

I'm trying to figure out a load from Lyman's 5th that I've not tried before that has me baffled, and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with it. The load is from p178, and is a 1 3/8 oz heavy field load, with

Win CF AA hull
Win 209
33.5 gr Blue Dot
WAA12F114
1 3/8 oz (601.6 gr) #5 lead. I have all these components on hand.

I am trying this as I "should" be able to make it through turkey season this spring with what factory loads I have on hand, but I'm not expecting to see anything new in these parts for a while. So, being on the safe side...

The issue is my first attempt at this load was wa-a-a-y off. Like, shot near the top of the unfolded petals off. I have a 5-0-5 scale, and hand-weighed the shot and powder charges, and have double-checked both. My second attempt confirmed this, I had to pour off 112.5 grains of shot to get near the crimp line. I'm using a MEC 600 Jr only to set the primer, wad, and crimp, and hand-feeding the powder and shot, so it isn't an issue with bushings. I'm certain the hull is a CF AA, and the wad is indeed a WAA12F114. I will say the MEC scale doesn't register any pressure when seating the wad. But I'm not sure it would compress that much. And even though I’m doing these “by hand”, I’ve used the press to load a bunch of trap and field lead and bismuth loads with little problem.

I have double-checked the Alliant page for a cross-reference, but they don't list WAA12F114 loads anymore, and I'm not sure where else to check to verify that this is a valid load. I find it kind of strange that Lyman's would list something so completely off. Lyman's even has a 1 1/2 oz load that is very similar, I just can't imagine all that fitting if 1 3/8 oz is full to the brim.

So, is anyone familiar with this load? Have any ideas what I could be doing wrong? Know a good recipe for a turkey load (that doesn't require purchasing unavailable components?)

Thanks!




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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:57 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 1765
Location: San Jose, CA
I’m nowhere near my reloading desk, or my Lymans, but I recall making a similar load from the same manual. To make all of the components fit, I had to hold the handle down when inserting the wad for approximately 45 seconds. There was enough pressure built up under the wad that if I released sooner, the pressure from below would slowly but surely force the wad up, and by the time I reached the crimp station the game was all but over.

No idea if your problem is the same one I had, but give the solution a try and hopefully it will work out.

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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 7927
Location: Central ND
Couple of things.

This load is optimistic, using the WAA12F114 wad for 1 3/8 oz. It will be a tight fit.

You have to use wad pressure to completely seat the wad on the powder.

I know you might have read that many folks on SGW don't use wad pressure but, target loads and hunting loads are two different animals.

Not only will you have to apply some wad pressure, but you will probably have to collapse the wad before trying to apply the crimp start and final crimp. That means applying possibly as much as 80 lbs. of wad pressure to get that done. Read the wad pressure/seating section on page 58. It claims that most loads in the Lyman 5th require between 20 and 40 lbs. of wad pressure, but some loads require more. This load will require more.

If you can find some Remington SP-12 wads you will be happier, but you will still have to apply wad pressure.

There is no downside to applying wad pressure, but you already have experienced the downside of not applying wad pressure.

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aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:34 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:22 pm
Posts: 444
Location: NE South Dakota
Rp12 would be better as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:36 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 1765
Location: San Jose, CA
Two thumbs up for your post. Pressure is required.

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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:11 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
Posts: 2400
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
When a load gets published we have no idea what shot size was used. Not only are you trying to use a 1 1/4 oz. wad for 1 3/8 oz. of shot but you are using #5 shot. Which takes up more room then any shot that is smaller in diameter.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 12384
Location: Kansas
The WAA12R would be even better if you can find any

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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:08 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:04 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Denver, CO
Are you using the factory Win. WAA12F114 wad or a clone? The factory wads were discontinued some time ago. I did use up the leftovers from an old bag for a 1-1/4oz pheasant load in AACF with WSF, looking for 1220 fps. Many years ago when I reloaded for a 1-1/2 oz and 1-3/8 pheasant load I used the factory WAA12R red wad. It is a much shorter wad. I used Win. powders for those but cannot remember which ones without looking it up. With the short WAA12R wad I did not have to use much wad pressure.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:35 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5647
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
I like the F114 wad better because the shot cup holds more shot. I don't do this when loading large numbers of shells but I use it often with hunting loads. Collapsible leg sections are not always the greatest shock absorbers to begin with but most will agree, a cushion section does usually benefit a load. I started reloading before the advent of the plastic wad so for me a built up wad column is a natural. I just cut the leg section out of the wad & replace it with a fiber wad. Pressure will not be significantly affected provided you use the same gas seal & don't increase the weight of the wad & shot charge. I would check patterns to be sure there are no surprises but I have have never had any.


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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5797
Are you using a genuine WAA12F114 or a clone? The reason I ask is this: one of the clone wads (I believe it is Claybuster?) actually cloned the WAA12, colored it yellow and calls it an F114. So you're basically using a 1 1/8oz wad for 1 3/8oz.


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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:36 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:04 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Denver, CO
I checked my old load data for 1-3/8 and 1-1/2 oz. They were from a 1984 book "Handbook for Shotshell Reloading. Using AACF hulls, W209, W571 powder, the red WAA12R wad.
For 1-3/8 oz at 1330 fps 39.5 gr 571 and for 1-1/2 oz at 1260 fps 36.5 gr 571. They both fit well with minimal wad pressure. As previously noted, the shot did not all fit in the cup which is close to a 1oz cup.

I can send you a few of the WAA12R wads if you want to try them. Send me a PM.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:28 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:18 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks for the help, y'all! Much appreciated.

Yeah, I'm certain of the wads, Winchester originals. The bag still has the Gibson's sale sticker on it ($5.95 for 250) Good thing I bought 3 bags, should last me a couple lifetimes! :lol:

I haven't had a chance to crank one out, but do see that crushing the legs some would give enough room to hold the shot charge, and I'll probably do that soon just out of stubbornness, and the ability to say that this load didn't get the better of me.

But I may have stumbled upon an even better approach yesterday. My situation is that I have 4 rounds of Win Supreme 3" Turkey loads left, and 3 people shooting off of it. I'm not worried about me missing a shot, because I don't miss, :wink: but my son wanted to move up from his 20 gauge to the 12, and he's still a youth. Then my brother wants to give the turkeys a try, but he can't find ammo either. And he can't shoot worth a lick! :wink: Hence, my need for a backup.

But yesterday morning, the boy dropped his turkey with one shot, and as the hull bounced off my knee, I thought "Why don't I just reload a 3-inch load into a 3-inch hull?" And there on page 179 of Lyman's 5th is a recipe with the same components. Seems much easier.

Now my next problem will be finding a Tom as big as the boy's! Geez, he shot a whopper!


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 Post subject: Re: Request assistance Debugging a published load
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:56 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6423
Location: Newton Kansas
You need to load that load into a straight-wall hull, one of the Eurotrash, the Federal High Power, and so forth.

Also, the F114 wad is WAY too tall, it is a 1-1/4oz wad, you need either the 12R wad (yes, I dislike the short petals too) or one of the Remingtons, I don't recall off the top of my head if it is the SP or RP12 that is short and has the deeper petals.

I essentially use the above load (but I think I am running a bit more Blue Dot), Fed. High Power High Brass, IIRC 34gr of BD, the Rem. wad, 1-3/8oz of #5 or #6 shot. 1325fps.
Essentially Factory Duplicate of the old Fed. Duck & Pheasant Load I used to sucessfully.
Late Season Pheasant Grenade.



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