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 Post subject: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:37 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 173
So I have some new Cheddite hulls with Cheddite primers that I got from BPI. I looked around for a load that could use my WST powder and found one in Lyman. It looks like this:

Source: Lyman p128
Hull: Ched
primer: Ched
weight: 1 1/8oz
wad: WAA12
Powder: WST
Grains: 22
velocity: 1180fps

I have two so-called replacements for WAA12 wads. I have CB1118-12 and some wads from MEC (118T4-12) that MEC says is a replacement for WAA12. The MEC version is a little shorter than the CB version. If I build this load with the CB wads, it comes out a little dished. If I build the load with the MEC wads, not surprisingly, it is very dished.

So my question is, how much is the peak pressure affected if I use a wad that just fits better. I have some CB6118-12 that everyone says fits best in in straight hulls. I made one and that comes out pretty good. I also have an MEC wad (118T4) that is supposed to be a replacement for 12S3. I made one with that wad and it is just slightly dished.

So just based on the look of the crimp, the CB6118-12 looks best and the MEC version of the 12S3 is almost as good. But, does the wad affect the pressure or can I use the same amount of powder with the CB6118 or 12S3?




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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
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https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=279379


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:55 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 173
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=279379


Well that is all about fit and I understood that from other threads but doesn't really address my question about switching wads from a specific load.

It seem kind of odd to me that Lyman would specify a taper style wad that is on the short side in the first place. I mean it's disappointing to try a load straight from the book and have it not stack up right. Makes me wonder where that load came from.

My question is still does anything bad happen with pressure if I switch the specified WAA12 style wad for a 12S3 or a CB6118. They obviously stack up better.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:15 am 
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Wad changes can affect chamber pressures.

If you peruse the data, you will find lead shot target wads generally affect pressure from 0 to 1,000 PSI. In extreme cases where you have a lose fitting wad and you go to a tight fitting wad I have had (tested by Tom Armbrust) a difference of 2,500 PSI. I believe this is what J.Fred_Muggs was referring to, the poor fit of some wads creating low chamber pressures.

This is my opinion........going to the CB2118-12 (12S3) is quite likely to raise the pressure a bit more than the listed 9,300 PSI in the Lyman data. I would stick with the CB6118-12, because it is more forgiving when it comes wad column height. I am also quite confident that the CB6118-12 wad will not raise chamber pressure 2,200 PSI. Remember this is my opinion.

YMMV

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
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Location: Attica, Mi
Doesn't Lyman give a pressure data ? A wad meant for tapered wall hulls in a straight walled hull will have less pressure than one meant for the straight walled hull. I don't use the Lyman shotgun reloading handbook [ horrors ] but the powder companies handbooks. I try to match the wad type to the hull type. It's how RST has such low recoiling/pressure loads. Tapered wads in SW hulls.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:30 am 
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bladesmith,

I looked up the load that the OP mentions from the Lyman 5th. It is listed at 9,300 PSI.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:56 am 
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Thanks, he maybe could have listed that also seeing how he was asking about pressure. I would think he'd still be safe , but that's just my guess.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:59 am 
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Generally adding more crushable length ie longer leg length or more felt under the shot, lowers the pressure. So for a dishing problem, a wad with shorter shot cup and longer legs should be slower and lower pressure.
For the same reasons, using a shorter leg wad would increase pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:02 pm 
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bladesmith,

I agree, shouldn't be a problem using the CB6118-12.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:02 pm 
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duplicate

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Last edited by dogchaser37 on Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:17 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 173
bladesmith wrote:
Thanks, he maybe could have listed that also seeing how he was asking about pressure. I would think he'd still be safe , but that's just my guess.


You are right. I should have listed the pressure. Still new at this.

I did try looking at the powder websites, Lyman, Advantages, and the Cheddite hull load guide (from BPI). The load I mentioned was all I could find for Cheddite hull and Cheddite primer with WST. I am at work now so don't have all my info at hand.

I don't really want to use Cheddite hulls. My preference is Rem hulls with Rem primers but I am running low on Rem primers. This is just a case of trying to use what I can find rather than using what I want.

I guess I am just scratching my head trying to understand the load as it is in Lyman since it just doesn't stack up. Then trying to see if I can fix it and not blow up my Trap Max :)

Deeply appreciate the replies.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
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Does anyone have the overall length of the CB3118-12AR?

I can't find any 6118's in stock anywhere so I am wondering how the 3118-12AR length compares to the 6118 or the 2118. 3118-12AR's are in stock at several places.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:20 pm 
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One thing you will find is that there are a LOT of loads that don't fit all that great.

However, shot bars and shot bushings don't exactly help out. Most, not all, but most shot bars and shot bushings throw light, and that takes a load that might crimp a little concave to a lot concave.

You don't want to use those Cheddite hulls.....don't be too quick to say that. They aren't half bad and in some respects are better than the Remington hulls, mostly because all Cheddite hulls are the same length. Remington hull length can be all over the lot. You get a hole in one crimp and a swirl in another.

A hull is pretty much a hull. Most hulls will reload just fine. You might get more loads out of one brand over another but that's about it.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
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dogchaser37 wrote:
You don't want to use those Cheddite hulls.....don't be too quick to say that.


Valuable advice. It's just that I am struggling trying to get a load that packs well. My Rem hull loads were my first ones and both WST and WSH loads stack and work fine.

dogchaser37 wrote:
Remington hull length can be all over the lot. You get a hole in one crimp and a swirl in another.


Yes, I have seen this especially with my Gun Club hulls. I was able to buy some Nitro 27 hulls and those seem to crimp much more consistently.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:37 pm 
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For the Cheddite hulls the CB6118-12 for 1 1/8 oz. loads and the CB6100-12 for 1 oz. loads are the way to go. They are just a bit longer than most wads but the legs are very compliant, so you get a nice flat crimp.

I use them in Cheddite, RIO, Federal Top Gun and Federal Gold Medal hulls. Mostly the CB6100-12 as I like 1 oz. loads for Sporting Clays.

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
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Quote:
Remington hull length can be all over the lot. You get a hole in one crimp and a swirl in another.


Quote:
Yes, I have seen this especially with my Gun Club hulls. I was able to buy some Nitro 27 hulls and those seem to crimp much more consistently.


Loading all the Remington target hulls, and have been for last 50 years. STS and Nitro and Gun Club and Clays-and-Field and Peters Blue all have lots of problems now, and have had some problems in past, with varying hull length. RXPs and Blue Magics were much better, but that was in the 80s.

I've seen nothing to prove that Gun Clubs are better length controlled than other Rem hulls right now. Wait 'till you have a few years of experience - your GCs can well be too small a batch to prove anything.

good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:18 am
Posts: 92
rhodesengr wrote:
Does anyone have the overall length of the CB3118-12AR?



Overall length: ~1.725"
Diameter at gas seal: ~ .730"
Depth of shot cup: ~ .830"


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:32 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 173
VizslaHunter wrote:
rhodesengr wrote:
Does anyone have the overall length of the CB3118-12AR?



Overall length: ~1.725"
Diameter at gas seal: ~ .730"
Depth of shot cup: ~ .830"


Nice. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 173
dogchaser37 wrote:
For the Cheddite hulls the CB6118-12 for 1 1/8 oz. loads and the CB6100-12 for 1 oz. loads are the way to go. They are just a bit longer than most wads but the legs are very compliant, so you get a nice flat crimp.

I use them in Cheddite, RIO, Federal Top Gun and Federal Gold Medal hulls. Mostly the CB6100-12 as I like 1 oz. loads for Sporting Clays.


I am definitely on the 6118 bandwagon. If only I can find some. I have 25 they sent me as samples.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive is max pressure relative to changing wads?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:18 am
Posts: 92
Oops. I didn't read your one post carefully enough. I think that you are looking for the dimensions of the cb-2118-12?
The cb-2118-12 and the cb-3118-12AR are virtually identical in all measurements and dimensions.
I have both in front of me right now.




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