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 Post subject: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:04 pm 
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I shoot skeet and SC 12ga. Have a question about subgauge shot and patterns

Does a 7/8 oz load ( 8 or 9 shot) from a 20 or 28ga pattern the same as 7/8 load from a 12 Ga using same chokes?

Thanks




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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:35 pm 
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54bullwinkle wrote:
I shoot skeet and SC 12ga. Have a question about subgauge shot and patterns

Does a 7/8 oz load ( 8 or 9 shot) from a 20 or 28ga pattern the same as 7/8 load from a 12 Ga using same chokes?

Thanks


No. There are several reasons, but they are not the "same" chokes, not the same wad, not the same load, not much involved is identical. The only thing that might be the same is the primer.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:32 am 
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I agree with Randy, BUT what I found was when we all went to 3/4 oz in 20 gauge the patterns from MY guns improved even when we had to use the 7/8 wad. And they improved again when the 3/4 oz wad became available. 3/4 is all I load for 20 gauge now, skeet, SC and game.....


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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:28 pm 
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Thanks
I guess my real question is that if you shoot the same number of pellets from a 12 or 28 bore and pattern them similar is degree of difficulty of hitting clays any different?


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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:58 pm 
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54bullwinkle wrote:
Thanks
I guess my real question is that if you shoot the same number of pellets from a 12 or 28 bore and pattern them similar is degree of difficulty of hitting clays any different?


The problem is, there is no reason to do that. You cannot have more pellets in a pattern than what you started with, which is why essentially everyone in 27 yard ATA trap uses 1-1/8 oz. loads, and the winners use premium target 1-1/8 oz. loads at that. More is more.

It gets closer as the targets get close, as in American skeet. Still, if there was no difference at all, having 12 / 20 / 28 gauge / .410 bore classes in skeet would be ludicrous. I'll quote Bruce Buck:

Quote:
The Connecticut Travelers subgauge handicap system was worked out over a period of time. They keep detailed records of every shot fired at each event. This is is a good thing for the Travelers. Since they shoot a finite number of courses in the course of the year, after a while things start to fall in place. I started by guesstimating the handicap and then adjusted it as the numbers rolled in. It took about two years of data to finalize.

12 ga = 0
16 ga = +3
20 ga = +5
28 ga = +10
410 bore = +20


Pump or SxS configuration gets an additional +5 birds, thus a .410 pump would get +25 added to their raw score. Shot loads per gauge are the same as in NSSA skeet, except that the 16 ga gets one oz.

Having said this, as I understand it, the handicap is no longer in place for the 20 gauge and larger. It seems that shooters were getting pretty proficient with their 20 gauges, and with the handicap, they were winning a disproportionate number of shoots.

One of the biggest problems with handicapping a subgauge is that the gauge itself is only part of the equation. We operate on the assumption that the shooter’s main gun is a 12, so when he shoots subgauge he’s using something he’s not really fully familiar with. So there’s a “different gun” quotient to the handicap in addition to the shotcharge. That’s why few people shoot 7/8 oz as well in a 20 as they do in the 12. I’m not aware of any 20 gauge guns being seriously used in ISSF Olympic competition, even though the 24 gram (7/8 oz) load would work well in either the 20 or 12.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:58 pm 
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Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:55 pm 
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I do not find a difference in one ounce of shot coming out of my 20 gauge or my 12 gauge if velocities are comparable. I shot flats of inexpensive 1 ounce 20 gauge heavy field loads. These are slower than the 1 ounce high brass shells at 1220 fps. I shot those shells for skeet and sporting clays for a couple of years. I would use a 12 gauge with 1 ounce loads at 1200 fps some rounds and the 20 with one ounce loads other rounds. My scores did not drop when shooting the 20. In fact I shot some of my best scores with the 20. To me it did not matter which gauge the ounce of shot came out of.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:47 pm 
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Thanks for the responses
After doing a bit of searching I found a great article on the topic in Field and Stream (excluding .410 )

When shooting the same number/ size / velocity pellets from different bores, larger bore guns will pattern slightly better. ( theoretically). The reason is that there are more deformed fliers in a small bore because the shot stack is higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:22 pm 
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It doesn't quite work that way, for if it was unflinchingly true the 20 gauge would embarrass any 28 gauge with 3/4 or 7/8 oz. loads.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles ... ogun-ammo/

. . . might be the article you are referring to.
"Test Loads :
– 20-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1165 fps (Modified choke)
– 12-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1235 fps (Modified choke)
Results: The 12-gauge delivered a 50.7 percent pattern with 202 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. The 20 did just 39.6 percent with 149 pellets inside the circle. The 12 achieved slightly deeper penetration (2.875 inches vs. 2.5625) in gelatin at 30 yards, likely due to the higher muzzle velocity. The high-speed camera showed no statistical difference between the lengths of the shot strings, which averaged 55 inches for the 12-gauge and 57 for the 20 at 20 yards."

The fundamental problem with one-incident pseudo-reporting is 1) using soft shot and, more importantly, 2) assuming that a choke marked "Modified" means anything. A "Modified" choke prints 60% of its pattern inside a 30 inch circle at 40 yards, regardless of gauge.

Horribly mis-marked choke tubes are nothing new.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:31 pm 
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54 -- Here's some info on this topic that I've posted before.

Here are a few of my pattern numbers comparing the performance of two Winchester AA Target factory loadings with 1-ounce of #8 lead shot through 20- and 12-gauge guns. They don’t have the exact same load components (not sure how you could do that anyway), but close enough to show the patterning differences of the two gauges, in these two guns anyway.

Patterning results from 20- and 12-gauge Browning Citori’s with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

20-Gauge Browning Invector-plus w/ 28" barrel and Briley flush chokes
Winchester AA Heavy Target Load
1 oz #8 lead (410 pellets) @ 1,165 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 216 (53%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 237 (58%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 276 (67%)
30 YARDS -- M / pattern 341 (83%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 270 (66%)
40 YARDS -- XF / pattern 291 (71%)

12-Gauge Browning Invector-plus w/ 28" barrel and Briley flush chokes
Winchester AA Extra-Lite Target Load
1 oz #8 lead (393 pellets) @ 1,180 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 218 (55%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 256 (65%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 305 (78%)
40 YARDS -- LM / pattern 251 (64%)
40 YARDS -- M / pattern 292 (74%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 295 (75%)

Obviously, the only way to really know how a load/choke combo will perform in your gun/choke is to pattern it!

That said, there are some general tendencies concerning this 20- vs 12-gauge question that can be made. A 12-gauge is usually more efficient than a 20 gauge; it usually takes a degree or two of choke tighter in the 20 gauge to reach similar 12 gauge pattern density; and when you get beyond ~40 yards, the 12 gauge will almost always be capable of putting more pellets in the pattern than the 20 gauge.

Remember, a load’s effectiveness is dependent on its ability to provide adequate pattern density with pellets having sufficient pellet energy for the bird or target at the distance the shot is taken! In practical terms, there is little difference in “effectiveness” when the same payload and shot size is used IF the barrel is choked properly to attain adequate pattern density at the distance they are used.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:40 pm 
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Quote:
"Test Loads :
– 20-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1165 fps (Modified choke)
– 12-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1235 fps (Modified choke)
Results: The 12-gauge delivered a 50.7 percent pattern with 202 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. The 20 did just 39.6 percent with 149 pellets inside the circle.


Joe Hunter wrote:

20-Gauge
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 270 (66%)

12-Gauge
Winchester AA Extra-Lite Target Load
1 oz #8 lead (393 pellets) @ 1,180 fps
40 YARDS -- M / pattern 292 (74%)


Who is telling the truth, Joe Hunter or Federal? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Federal got only 50.7 % @ 40 yards with a Mod choke out of a 12 gauge.
Joe Hunter managed 66% with a 20 gauge with a IM choke, and 74% with a 12 gauge Mod choke. Yet, if you believe Federal . . . 50.7% is typical with a 12 gauge.

A "Modified" choke should print about 60% at 40 yards, regardless of gauge.

This is like being a cashier-- wrong is wrong, over is just as bad as being under. A choke marking is SUPPOSED to mean something. As Joe just showed . . . it doesn't mean anything specific.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:35 am 
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The point of all this "BS" being that what is marked on the choke or choke tube is not necessarily what patterns the individual gun and load will actually deliver.

PATTERN THE GUN to be sure. And remember, no two patterns are alike - they are statistical, but within limits.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:46 am 
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I would think that say 1 ounce in a 12 gauge would have a wider foot print leaving the barrel than 1 ounce in say a 20 gauge and that the patter for the 12 gauge then might be a little wider. I am of the old school that more is better, so in 12 gauge I am still shooting 1 1/8 ounce for skeet.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:39 am 
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To ignore every thing else. The 12 would have the largest diameter core pattern until the payload gets too lite resulting in a pattern not dense enough. That may be less than 3/4 ounce. The 28 gauge with 3/4 of shot and just 13.0 grains of powder is a very efficient load. I tend to just move down a gauge when I want less shot. (12-1) (20-7/8) (28-3/4) works fine for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Gauge vs Load patterns
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:10 pm 
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BobK wrote:
what is marked on the choke or choke tube is not necessarily what patterns the individual gun and load will actually deliver.


Far worse than that-- it won't be.



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