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Shotshell Ammo

3K views 17 replies 10 participants last post by  noweil 
#1 ·
I've gone up-and-down this site list a few times searching for a shot shell ammo category with negative results.

My guess is 2.75" baby magnums are no longer marketed. The shotgun I have on order will have 3" chambers.

When I was much younger, I used to enjoy quail hunting in Southern California. Because of urban sprawl, I'd have a substantial drive ahead of me if I wanted to hunt quail. I've done the pheasant farm in So Cal. They were obviously tame birds. Birds lacked instinct to hide or fly. I'd have to almost step on them to get them to fly.

For the record, as long as it's legal and ethical, it's none of my business how others hunt. In fact, I support game farms because without them, hunters suffering physical disabilities would be denied ability to hunt.

Arizona, Utah, and Nevada have upland hunting. I believe Utah's pheasant season follows its mule deer season.

I loved quail hunting because it required a lot of physical effort and keen hand-eye coordination. I enjoyed wild pheasant hunting. I'd love to do a wild pheasant hunt.

Now for my problem: I have no clue whether lead shot can be used for upland game hunting in other states. In CA, nothing can be hunted with lead shot, lead bullets, or lead core bullets.

From memory alone, the old Remington's Sure-Shot ammo and similar ammo from other manufacturers was the upland game bird ticket. I believe that the 12 gauge version of Sure-Shot was 1.125" ounces of shot, 7.5 for quail, 4, 5, and 6 for pheasant. Sure-Shot did put birds in vests. My dad used 12 gauge baby magnums for waterfowl. What's the consensus on 12 gauge upland ammo? Is there an upland site that has steel and other non-lead ammo info? Can I find that info on this site?

Finally, out of curiosity, what do shotgun deer hunters do where only buckshot is required? I'd hope states don't force shotgun hunters to hunt deer with steel buckshot.
 
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#2 ·
Most states that allow gun allow lead shot for upland bird. Waterfowl and migratory birds are subject to Fed regs.
 
#3 ·
1911-A1 said:
I've gone up-and-down this site list a few times searching for a shot shell ammo category with negative results.

My guess is 2.75" baby magnums are no longer marketed. The shotgun I have on order will have 3" chambers.

When I was much younger, I used to enjoy quail hunting in Southern California. Because of urban sprawl, I'd have a substantial drive ahead of me if I wanted to hunt quail. I've done the pheasant farm in So Cal. They were obviously tame birds. Birds lacked instinct to hide or fly. I'd have to almost step on them to get them to fly.

For the record, as long as it's legal and ethical, it's none of my business how others hunt. In fact, I support game farms because without them, hunters suffering physical disabilities would be denied ability to hunt.

Arizona, Utah, and Nevada have upland hunting. I believe Utah's pheasant season follows its mule deer season. For the record, pheasant hunting in Utah is a very cruel joke being played on the public. The best (to me) REAL wild pheasant hunting is in the Dakotas, portions of Nebraska, and Kansas.

I loved quail hunting because it required a lot of physical effort and keen hand-eye coordination. I enjoyed wild pheasant hunting. I'd love to do a wild pheasant hunt.

Now for my problem: I have no clue whether lead shot can be used for upland game hunting in other states. In CA, nothing can be hunted with lead shot, lead bullets, or lead core bullets. To the best of my knowledge, Kalifornia is the ONLY state requiring non-toxic ammunition for everything.

From memory alone, the old Remington's Sure-Shot ammo and similar ammo from other manufacturers was the upland game bird ticket. I believe that the 12 gauge version of Sure-Shot was 1.125" ounces of shot, 7.5 for quail, 4, 5, and 6 for pheasant. Sure-Shot did put birds in vests. My dad used 12 gauge baby magnums for waterfowl. What's the consensus on 12 gauge upland ammo? Is there an upland site that has steel and other non-lead ammo info? Can I find that info on this site?

Finally, out of curiosity, what do shotgun deer hunters do where only buckshot is required? I'd hope states don't force shotgun hunters to hunt deer with steel buckshot.
You would be well advised to just seek out bismuth shotgun ammunition in whatever configuration matches your old lead shot loads. If you choose to use steel, then look for loads of #4 or #3 steel for pheasants in 2 3/4" or 3" shells with velocity at 1500 fps or higher and you'll be okay. Steel #6 or #7 will do just fine on quail. But my first choice would be bismuth.
 
#4 ·
The DNR of any state, via the Internet, would be the place to determine if and when there are restrictions on lead shot.

12 and 20 gauge "baby" magnums are available.

Your analysis of the states where "real" pheasant hunting exists is severely flawed.

I believe buckshot is legal for deer in a few(good operative word) states....that would be lead.
Whether only buckshot is allowed, I doubt and imagine slugs see more use, generally...buck is more of a nod to cover hunted, tradition or dogs used, perhaps.
 
#8 ·
I only know the regulations on shot for upland hunting for the states I hunt. Googling upland regulations at different state DNR's or Fish and Game should not be a problem.

For pheasants in areas where lead is allowed, I shoot 2 3/4" 12 gauge loads with 1.25 ounces of lead #5 shot at 1330-1400 fps depending on the shells. In areas where nontoxic shot is required, I shoot 3" 12 gauge loads with 1.25 ounces of steel #2 and occasionally #1 at 1400-1450 fps. Some people usually chime in to comment how you don't need 1400 fps lead pheasant loads, but when you get a great deal on copper plated lead #5's at 1400 fps and they work great you buy as many as you can.

As for the baby magnums, check and see if Kent still loads the 2 3/4" 1.5 ounce Ultimate Upland loads. They were 1.5 ounces of lead at 1400 fps. They would kill on one end and wound on the other. They were too much shell for me.

Ultimate Fast Lead Shotshell - Kent Cartridge
https://kentcartridge.com/us/shotshell/ ... -fast-lead

A couple other thoughts on baby magnums, you could look at 2 3/4" inch lead turkey loads. Remington ammo is back on the market, and they used to load Nitro Mags in 2 3/4" 1.5 ounce shells.
 
#9 ·
Multiflora said:
Your analysis of the states where "real" pheasant hunting exists is severely flawed.
Really? And I suppose you know better than Pheasants Forever (PF) where the best pheasant hunting is. Here is the 'Top 8' pheasant states listed on the PF website:
Kansas - 4/day, 16 in possession
SoDak - 3/day, 15 in possession
NoDak - 3/day, 12 in possession
Nebraska - 3/day, 12 in possession
Iowa - 3/day, 12 in possession
Montana - 3/day, 9 in possession
Colorado - 3/day, 9 in possession
Minnesota - 2/day, 6 in possession (Oct 15 - Nov 30); 3/day, 9 in possession (Dec 1 - end)
I set the order above by bag & possession limits. You can argue until the cows come home about the order of the 3 states (ND, NE, IA), but they will still be identical as to bag & possession limits.

I've hunted pheasants in SD, ND, CO, & MT. And from my experience and from the PF numbers/ranking, I don't see any flaw in my earlier statement. All 4 states I named as 'real' pheasant hunting venues are in the PF 'Top 8', and based on bag/possession limits are in the Top 5. And I didn't say my list was all inclusive - just my favorite go-to places for the ringneck.
 
#10 ·
dubob said:
...I've hunted pheasants in SD, ND, CO, & MT. And from my experience and from the PF numbers/ranking, I don't see any flaw in my earlier statement. All 4 states I named as 'real' pheasant hunting venues are in the PF 'Top 8', and based on bag/possession limits are in the Top 5. And I didn't say my list was all inclusive - just my favorite go-to places for the ringneck. [/color]
"to me".......does make a difference, glad you eventually clarified your comment thru an edit.
:wink: {hs#

Bag and possession limits are an interesting method of reckoning gamebird viability....I would suggest that route often involves a time lag and/or a desire to maintain an image.
Ohio has easily proven that in recent years with ruffed grouse...as but an aside.

I will say that, ime, KS(for example) pheasants suffered in the recent drought and really have yet to recover to pre-drought numbers.
Your experience may differ...make it a nice day.
 
#11 ·
Hi Crown Grade,

Thank you so much for your relevant and extremely helpful information.

I'm becoming reliant upon knowledge of posters here to guide my decisions.

My daughter attends college in Kansas. I have been pursuing the 'net for pheasant outfitters in Kansas. Based upon my limited research, outfitters advertise wild birds with most hunts occurring on private property. I believe hunts are limited to cock pheasants.

I'd much rather do adventure vacations than sightseeing vacations. I'd much rather allocate my vacation budget to creating indelible memories afield than
 
#12 ·
I've spent a few hours researching Bismuth. It's an element. It's atomic number is 83. Lead's atomic number is 82. Bismuth atonic number is 83. It appears to be a better option than steel.

I had gone darn close to full choke when I checked out prices for a box of Bismuth ammo. It brings a new reality to making each shot count.

China has the largest deposits of bismuth at an estimated 250,000 metric tons compared to the USA's 5,000 metric tons.

Profit is a powerful motivator. I know that shotguns sports are very popular worldwide. I'm hoping that chemists can come up with a much less expensive replacement for lead that's nontoxic and has game anchoring efficacy as lead.

I've seen corrosive effects of saltwater on steel. What I do not know is whether the process of steel corrosion produces toxins that are more harmful than lead. Saltwater corrodes steel quite rapidly. Leave a chunk of untreated rebar in the ocean overnight. By morning, you'll see beginning stages of corrosion.

I'm a fishermen as well. I've been told, not to be confused with access to scientific research, that when catch-and-releasing freshwater fish, a fish's chances of survival is infinitely better if line is cut on a hook rather than risk fatal harm by trying to remove a hook if removal is difficult. I've been told that freshwater along with trout digestive systems will disintegrate steel hooks within three days.

My point is replacing lead shot with steel shot without extensive scientific research that definitively proves the latter is safer than the former might cause more severe problems. We would have to know whether dissolving steel; e.g., rust, produces harmful toxins. I do not know the answer.
 
#14 ·
I live in the western end of Nebraska and the pheasant population is alive and well. True story. My son in law who is a farmer was fixing pheasant and noodles and invited us out for dinner.he thought there was one in the freezer but there was not. He ordered my 15 yr old grandson to go out and get a pheasant and hurry. 15 minutes he was back with the bird.If you live in the country you know where everything is. :D
 
#15 ·
wrfish said:
I live in the western end of Nebraska and the pheasant population is alive and well. True story. My son in law who is a farmer was fixing pheasant and noodles and invited us out for dinner.he thought there was one in the freezer but there was not. He ordered my 15 yr old grandson to go out and get a pheasant and hurry. 15 minutes he was back with the bird.If you live in the country you know where everything is. :D
I believe it, and I love that story.
 
#16 ·
I'll adhere to proper decorum: after muddling my way through cause for banning lead shot for deaths as collateral to hunting, I've come to the conclusion that either an ulterior motive motivated the lead shot ban law or it was not based upon scientific methodology. As we're witnessing with Chauvin's trial, assigning cause of death can be most difficult with disagreement among pathologists. Performing necropsy on dead game and non-game animals found in the wild without gunshot wounds and with lead in their systems could be dicey. If lead was present, how did it get in an animal's system? Was it lead shot? What it from a source not related to hunting? My guess is it's a guess than the dead animal ingested lead shot. If lead is found in a dead animal, was it the cause of death? Have all other causes of death been eliminated leaving lead as the only cause? Let's assume, and it is an assumption, that a tiny percentage of game and non-game animals have ingested shot causing their deaths. Would that very tiny percentage of deaths justify forcing hunters to use shot that has a long rap sheet for inflicting crippling wounds upon game birds that will die unrecovered?

I would love to access actual scientific research that proved the hypothesis that ingested lead shot was isolated as the sole cause of unintended game and non-game animals' deaths.

As hunters, we have ethical responsibility to inflict immediate and humane death on animals we're hunting.
 
#17 ·
1911-A1 said:
I would love to access actual scientific research that proved the hypothesis that ingested lead shot was isolated as the sole cause of unintended game and non-game animals' deaths.
I've got no dog in this fight, but since you mentioned you like to read research I thought I'd look for some. (I like to search...)

This may be interesting to you: http://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp- ... _green.pdf
 
#18 ·
1911-A1 said:
My point is replacing lead shot with steel shot without extensive scientific research that definitively proves the latter is safer than the former might cause more severe problems. We would have to know whether dissolving steel; e.g., rust, produces harmful toxins. I do not know the answer.
You are really late to the game with this arguement. It is not the dissolving that it the problem, it is what happens to the pellets in the gizzard of the birds. Frank Bellrose sampled the gizzards of 10's of thousands of ducks. It was also about the non-target birds like eagles that ingested lead pellets eating dead or wounded waterfowl. There have been many documented cases of non-target birds eating lead shot and getting lead poisoning. They test sick and injured eagles blood for lead levels when they are brought in for treatment.

All the biologists that I knew who conducted sampling of waterfowl for lead in their gizzards are retired now, but pretty much everyone I knew was an avid waterfowl hunter and some of them were involved in testing of steel shot working with the ammo companies. The switch to steel was no fun, but steel will kill ducks and geese. People say it was all political, how do you think laws get passed? There is plenty of research out there about the problems with lead shot if you look for it. People claim steel is such a crippler and act like there were no sky blasters and long shooters when we shot lead. The research has been done.
 
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