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 Post subject: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:23 am 
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I need some advice from those who are more familiar with this potential problem. I've read a few topics and seen photos on these forums, and I want to know if I should be worried. I'd like to shoot clays on Sunday but I am afraid to use these chokes until I'm sure they fit correctly and won't cause problems.

Today (exactly a month after ordering, that's a different story), I received Angleport chokes for my Benelli M2, 4 extended non-ported (IC, LM, M, and IM) and an extended non-ported turkey choke.

My M2 barrel code says 18,4 (MM, which converts to .7244 inches). When I talked to Angleport, they said the .723 chokes are the ones that fit, seems reasonable.

When I insert the chokes, they spin in just fine and the shoulder seems to fit to the muzzle. The bottom of the skirt is the right length to hit the barrel cutout (step). But when doing the soda straw test, sliding it down inside the choke to the bottom of the skirt, it seems to catch on the barrel step like it should in most places, but not in others. The problems are mostly in the lower 4:00 - 8:00 o'clock positions when looking down the barrel and are seen in all 4 of the "regular" chokes, but the turkey choke is fine (it's not the constriction I ordered, but again, that's another story).

I took some pictures and would appreciate some feedback. I discovered in doing this that the key to viewing the photos is not the thickness of the soft shadows (which is due to the angle as the camera takes the picture) but the important thing is the sharp defined line which shows where the skirt is higher at that location and not as far below the barrel step. These are the places where the soda straw slides past a little too easily. I also included a pic of my Benelli Crio IC choke which fits flush all around and you can feel a good step with the soda straw.

So is all this a problem with the Angleport chokes? Again, their turkey choke was fine but not the others. I tried calling them but it was after hours tonight.

Angleport .10 IC choke in M2
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Angleport .15 LM choke in M2
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Angleport .20 Mod choke in M2
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Angleport .25 IM choke in M2
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Benelli Crio IC choke in M2
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Sorry for the long post!




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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:44 am 
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Very interesting situation. Did you measure the barrel wall thickness to determine if the Choke bore id concentric with the barrel bore? Benalli has a good reputation amongst firearms manufacturers, but there is always the possibility the barrel is off and not the choke tubes. Be interesting in hearing what the trouble is.
V/R TonyG


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:13 am 
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wierd, its only in the angle port chokes.. But in the same place in the barrel.. If you can see a shoulder in the barrel from the breach youve got problems.. You could try a piece of straw 2-3 inches long, glue or tape it to a full straw so nothing is on the flush side(barrel side) of the 3 inch straw.. then stick it down the barrel and pull it up parralell to the edge of the bore, and see if it catches on the choke.. If either of this these problem seems evident its time to go to a good gunsmith.. Since it happening in the same place with one set of chokes it appears to be the gun,, but the chokes dont flair enought on the breach side for the problem.. . There is a problem with the chokes and gun.. But what the heck do i know, im no gunsmith.. just go cautiously.. and dont shoot those chokes yet,,, :) .dave..


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:43 am 
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What caused you to suspect the chokes? Did the gun shoot funny or were you just checking them because they were new?

On another note, how did you take those pictures?

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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:08 pm 
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IMO, it doesn't look like it is the threading of your barrel. The Crio tube looks very symmetric. I think it was the angleport chokes that were not cut right.

If all your factory chokes are good, then it's not the barrel.

By the way, how did you take those photos?

Now I feel compelled to take a look at my after market chokes now. :shock:


Last edited by Pull_Bang_Reload on Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:09 pm 
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Location: Louisville, KY
TonyG wrote:
Very interesting situation. Did you measure the barrel wall thickness to determine if the Choke bore id concentric with the barrel bore? Benalli has a good reputation amongst firearms manufacturers, but there is always the possibility the barrel is off and not the choke tubes. Be interesting in hearing what the trouble is.
V/R TonyG


I don't have any tools to measure the bore walls or diameter, but I agree the barrel doesn't seem perfectly true with the choke threads. The Crio chokes that came with the gun also do not line up perfectly but the skirt on them hides better. On a given Crio choke, the step in the lower (6:00 o'clock) position is not as pronounced as other parts of the clock but there is a definite feel of a step with the soda straw. This is similar to the Angleport chokes, but the skirt end of the Angleports seems a smidge smaller in diameter.

ffffg wrote:
wierd, its only in the angle port chokes.. But in the same place in the barrel.. If you can see a shoulder in the barrel from the breach youve got problems.. You could try a piece of straw 2-3 inches long, glue or tape it to a full straw so nothing is on the flush side(barrel side) of the 3 inch straw.. then stick it down the barrel and pull it up parralell to the edge of the bore, and see if it catches on the choke.. If either of this these problem seems evident its time to go to a good gunsmith.. Since it happening in the same place with one set of chokes it appears to be the gun,, but the chokes dont flair enought on the breach side for the problem.. . There is a problem with the chokes and gun.. But what the heck do i know, im no gunsmith.. just go cautiously.. and dont shoot those chokes yet,,, :) .dave..


Yes, great description, ffffg. However, the Angleport turkey choke fits well, similar to my Crios. It has the feel of a good step at the bottom of the skirt, but less in the lower o'clock positions. I tried your soda straw test with all chokes, Crio and Angleport. I cannot feel ANY of them catch, and trust me, I did this many times. It'd be nice to flair the breech end of the Angleport chokes a tad, but they don't catch. The step and fit in the lower o'clock positions is not at all dramatic, but it's not raised above the barrel according to your soda straw test.

Rastoff wrote:
What caused you to suspect the chokes? Did the gun shoot funny or were you just checking them because they were new?


Paranoia from absorbing too much knowledge on SGW?! The gun shoots fine with the Crio chokes seems to me. I have about 400 rounds through it. I just wanted some convenience of the extended chokes to I ordered the Angleports.

Rastoff wrote:
On another note, how did you take those pictures?


I set the barrel on a couple soft rests (leather gloves on books) and put a white piece of cardboard a couple inches from the muzzle. I set a halogen lamp shining on the white cardboard. At the breech end, I set my camera on a book so the lens was at the height to shoot down the barrel. Cranked it up to 11x zoom and shot the pics at 1600x1200. Cropped the pics to show only the area of the choke skirt and posted. I had to mop the barrel with a patch often when changing chokes to keep it clean for pics.


I'd read somewhere that most guns don't really have the choke threads lined up perfect (I think someone said 2 of their 11 guns were concentric). Maybe I'm overly worried, but I thought I'd see what you guys think. It seems like these chokes generally fit, although it would be nice if the skirt end were flared a bit more.

Thanks for the good ideas, and I'd appreciate hearing your opinions on this.


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:04 am 
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If you are really serious about finding what the problem actually is, you need somebody like me to physically examine the barrel and components.

I have been like the lone voice in the wilderness for 23 years, telling shooters that choke holes (and sometimes tubes) can be crooked, and machining with non-concentric centerlines of the inside and outside is a possible fact.

Since you are evidently seeing the edge from the breech position, you have what is known as a bore obstructive (or intrusive) lip exposure. The shot and fouling can pack under the edge and possibly lift the tube enough to cause a blow-out or bulge (and then blow-out). You do not need to make any other tests with a straw or any other amateur suggestions. You can see there is a problem already. You don't need any other noses to prove that you have something rotten.

You should go see my website where I have articles and pictures posted that show crooked chokes, and be sure to catch the view of the exploding (almost) barrel in article 3. The choke tube is peeling inside out, the barrel is bulged and split, and another shell would have made it a grenade.

Maybe after this, more shooters will think to pay attention when I say that there is a problem.

If anyone is selling chokes (and have never seen that specific barrel) that are supposed to be an exact match for your existing bore size at the entry end of the tube, I call that FOOLHARDY. Too many factory choke holes are crooked to a substantial degree, and a blown out barrel is a bad price to pay for a pretend precision. I cannot emphasize enough just how much danger possibility exists and is multiplied by how many shooters in the same boat, but totally ignorant of the facts? It is possible to reduce the danger slightly (sometimes) by having a slanted edge to the tube entry, instead of a flat surface, but why have such an inconsequential gain from a supposed close fit when you have such a huge gain in definite danger possibilities?

What happens to the goof that buys the tubes from another goof that decides to sell them later? Who is keeping track of what bore size was supposed to work with which particular tube? Now you may understand why I don't want to make precision chokes for any barrel that I didn't inspect (and preferably install a straight choke hole myself).

Why do you think that factory made chokes are larger than the bore (at the entry end of the choke) in the first place?

You are always more safe with a choke entry a little larger than the bore, than attempting to make a blind "precision" fit. Talk about a contradiction of terms.

I really have a hard time believing that any choke manufacturer with even half of a brain would sell chokes that are supposed to be matched to a particular bore size at the tube entry without having any inspection at all. They should know better, or shouldn't be in business. Any shooter that buys into the notion of getting bore-matched chokes through the mail should have his head examined (once he understands the ramifications seen here).

NEVER EVER shoot with a choke that has an exposed edge that you can see from the breech end. The future widow of the shooter standing next to you would be very grateful for the favor.
I am not kidding.

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Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:00 am 
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Well sputterbug you have had me thinking all day. I also have a set of Angleport chokes and I got to wondering if they were giving me issues. So, I got out all my choke tubes, I have 9, and put each one in each barrel to check. I don't seem to have the issues you have.

Looking from the muzzle with a light, I can see a ring around the bottom of each choke. Also, they all look the same to me. Without actual measurements that can't be verified. The main goal here was to ensure safety and they are all safe. I didn't need a straw to check this, I could see all of them.

I also am not sure your pictures are telling you what you might think. I've been trying for a while to duplicate your pictures without success. One thing I noticed right away is the reflections down the barrel give various results. I was able to get a picture that looked something like yours, but my chokes don't protrude past the barrel "step". I also had a lot of trouble with focus. I never could get a decent focus and therefore couldn't get a quality picture. I believe it's possible to get what you saw simply because the camera wasn't perfectly aligned with the barrel.

By no means am I doubting your findings. I'm just mentioning what I ran into.

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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:29 am 
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I put a piece of scotch type tape on my counter top.. I could easily feel a definite tick sliding the straw over it both by pushing a single straw, and pulling a double straw.. The tape measured .002 inches thick.. I think it would have ticked at .001 inch..

Another thing to look at is to slide a single straw into the bore from the muzzel at at varying angles.. you may feel a tick all around the bottom of the choke where it hits the barrel going in.. If you feel a tick where the black line is on the picture this could mean something else could be going on in the photo....

Its an interesting note that my mom worked at the elgin watch factory in the 1940s.. Her job was polishing aviator watch second hands.. She told me your fingers can feel .0001 (ten thousanths ) of an inch.. Measuring divises arnt much good for polishing second hands.. Not very scientific is it?? :shock:

Noone is telling you not to have it checked by a gunsmith.. Of course in this case i feel it would be important.. ..

I dont think you need to have your barrel cut off and re bored.. If the factory chokes are ok, then you can get other chokes that will work.. then have them checked again to be sure..
Dave


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:09 am 
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I really appreciate all the thoughtful input guys, and I apologize if I opened up a can 'o worms. I think this issue, and a lot of them surrounding shotguns, is sufficiently complex and hard to diagnose.

Kirby, your posts in the past are part of the reason I was cautious about this problem. Just today I shot clays (not with these chokes!) with a guy who was around at a time when a barrel blew up on someone. We've all heard those warnings loud and clear and it pays to be careful.

I am baffled that there's so much variance in aftermarket chokes. I guess I a little naive, but they sell thousands of them each year ... I'd love to know the specs on incidents and barrel trouble. Still, you would think tolerances and specs would be tighter both on the manufacturer barrels and the aftermarket chokes.

I am taking the 5 Angleports and my 5 Crio (flush) chokes to the gunsmith, probably this week and have them checked out.

The pics are a bit dramatic, but I thought instructive. Rastoff, you're right, it's tough to get a good shot. I have an old 4 megapixel Canon PowerShot S40. The optics are good on it though. If I used the macro mode in zoom, I couldn't focus, but the auto settings with 3 zone focus worked fairly well.

I could see a more defined line on the Angleport chokes when looking from the breech, HOWEVER, I still think the straw test is helpful. When sliding the straw from muzzle to skirt, I can feel a step all the way around with every choke; however, the Angleports at some positions felt like a smaller step. This was also the case with Dave's double straw and drawing toward me. I can feel a step, but it's not the same drop all the way around... with ANY of my chokes whether Angleport or Crio.

The skirts on the Crio are apparently flared or wider. I will see what my gunsmith recommends for my own peace of mind and have him mic the barrel and measure the chokes.

Maybe I can talk Benelli into a new barrel for my 3 month old gun, but I think the odds are slim depending on the definition of "within specs" and I also wonder if many barrels aren't off a tad. That's one area where the simple straw test can give you some feedback. I'm certainly not a gunsmith but it's easy to tell if it feels out of round.

Thanks for the help. I'll keep you posted on what I find out!


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:04 am 
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I think if you have any doubt at all about their safety you should have them checked out by someone competant.
I also am not sure how accurate your pictures are, no disrespect, but it doesn't take being just the slightest bit off perfect angle to give and impression of out of roundness.


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:34 am 
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Update:

I took the chokes and gun to a local gunsmith yesterday and he checked over both the Crio (flush) chokes and the Angleports and declared them fit for use. He agreed the barrel threads were a tad out of line but could offer no opinion on how common that was. His methods of measuring and checking the fit didn't seem any more scientific than the straw test, however. I guess 'smiths are like doctors and I may seek a 2nd opinion.


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:57 pm 
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You make it sound like the smith didn't really do a thorough inspection. I would get a second opinion. Send it to Kirby.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:49 am 
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sputterbug wrote:
Update:

I took the chokes and gun to a local gunsmith yesterday and he checked over both the Crio (flush) chokes and the Angleports and declared them fit for use. He agreed the barrel threads were a tad out of line but could offer no opinion on how common that was. His methods of measuring and checking the fit didn't seem any more scientific than the straw test, however. I guess 'smiths are like doctors and I may seek a 2nd opinion.


Update? How is the gun shooting with the Angleports you have. I ask becuase I also have an M2 and have just ordered a set of Angleport chokes. Thanks for any update. :)


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Juneau,

Thanks for asking. No worries after all. I've used all of them, I'd estimate 400-500 rounds, most with the IC and LM and have monitored them for any build-up of powder, etc. I clean 'em after each use but they've not been any dirtier than the Crios were.

Perhaps a bit of paranoia on my part, but I think it's worth being cautious and check your fit when you receive them. I'd be interested in hearing how yours turn out.

One of mine was a turkey choke, but alas, did not get used except at the patterning board. My dad, bro, and I had a ton 'o fun though, and I called one from the roost that dropped like a lead balloon into my decoys. Bro missed :(

I'm loving the M2 for clays, and the extended chokes are nice on the 3 or 4 stations at my local club when I swap out.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:49 pm 
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sputterbug wrote:
Juneau,

Thanks for asking. No worries after all. I've used all of them, I'd estimate 400-500 rounds, most with the IC and LM and have monitored them for any build-up of powder, etc. I clean 'em after each use but they've not been any dirtier than the Crios were.

That's all very good to hear. Especially since I just brought home a new M2 last night, and ordered Angleport chokes this morning! :)

Perhaps a bit of paranoia on my part, but I think it's worth being cautious and check your fit when you receive them. I'd be interested in hearing how yours turn out.

Better to be cautious than have a problem. I'll certainly keep you posted.

One of mine was a turkey choke, but alas, did not get used except at the patterning board. My dad, bro, and I had a ton 'o fun though, and I called one from the roost that dropped like a lead balloon into my decoys. Bro missed :(

Sounds like a lot of fun! :)

I'm loving the M2 for clays, and the extended chokes are nice on the 3 or 4 stations at my local club when I swap out.

Sounds good! I'll be taking it out for clays for the first time, as soon as I can get some time, probably next week or so. Can't wait to try this M2 out! I took it apart and cleaned all the factory lube stuff out of it today after work.

This has been a real informative post for me. Take care now, and thanks! :) I'll let you know how things work out!


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 Post subject: Re: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:33 pm 
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sputterbug wrote:
Perhaps a bit of paranoia on my part, but I think it's worth being cautious and check your fit when you receive them. I'd be interested in hearing how yours turn out.


Just received my Angleport chokes, and went out to shoot a round of SC today with them in my new Benelli M2. No problems at all. These Angleport chokes are really nice, I think. I like the way they look, kind of a golden or copper color after the heat treatment they get. I also like the bore diameter and constriction imprinted on the sides, for easy identification. These are very nice chokes, IMO. I also patterned the IC and IM today, very nice patterns.


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 Post subject: re: Misaligned Angleport chokes in Benelli M2
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:47 pm 
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Juneau,

That's good news, and thanks for the report. Hope you enjoy your M2!




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