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 Post subject: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:42 pm
Posts: 9
I ran across a Winchester 1897 "riot" today for $400. I liked the way it felt, but I know nothing about 1897's. I admit it, I fell for the 19th century "tacti-cool" aspect of it. The action was nice and it locked up very tight. This would be a "fun" gun, so it's going to be shot. Clerk said he thought it was an ex cowboy action gun and that based on the the looks of it, someone had gone through it. Considering it locked up tighter than most new guns, that's plausible. One bad is that you could rotate the magazine tube about 10-15 degrees in either direction.

I knew originals are used in cowboy action, but how do they hold up? Also, anything specific I should look for? Any other tips or comments are appreciated. Thanks!




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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:43 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
I have six M97s. Kinda retired from Cowboy a few months ago. $400.00 for a decent 97 ain't bad. Solid frames will cost $500.00 or more.
Probably ain't a "riot" gun. Most of us chop the barrel off at 18" to 24". Sorry.
These shotguns are used in a lot of movement and you will be handicapped with a 30". That chop job gets shed of any choke also. We don't need it. Shotgun knockdowns are generally 21 ft. to 30 ft. away.
Some of us have screw in chokes but most shoot full/open cylinder.
Durable? A little luck and those old parts will last a long time. I have two solid frames I have used one for seven years. I have replaced the ejector ($3.00 On the left side of the receiver there is a small screw holding a metal "L" shaped strip disappearing into a small hole adjacent to the screw. This is a little piece of spring steel that ejects the spent hull.) a couple of times but you must realize I used to shoot cowboy EVERY Saturday and Sunday averaging about 30 rounds each day plus a lot of practice. I have a couple made in 1899 and one made in 1945. The others are about the same. Point is, they last.
Caveat. They are the most complicated shotgun I have ever seen. It is amazing to take one apart and realize they made these is 1897 (patent date) and continued until around 1950.
Loose mag tube.
There should be a small screw in the front right side of the receiver that prohibits the shell tube from turning. With this little screw loose, loose the screw holding the front bracket holding the tube to the barrel, turn the tube 1/2 turn and pull tube out of receiver, rotate the barrel assembly counter clock wise 1/2 turn and you can remove barrel assembly from the receiver (take down model). The tube and barrel have (what is the word?)threads that allow this.
Come spring I have threatened to take one to the skeet field.

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:06 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:22 am
Posts: 4364
Location: East Mountains, NM
I've got a 1922 vintage '97 with 30" barrel and full choke. It is absolutely deadly on the trap field even at the 27 yard line.

If it's tight, it should last longer than you will.


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:42 pm
Posts: 9
Thanks for the advice.

I know this will sound stupid, but I started googling 1897's last night and saw more than one person say the clones with an action job are better for a "shooter" than the original. It seemed to me that a genuine 1897-even one chopped down-would be better than a clone, but, again, not an expert with them. Any thoughts on that?

The irony is that the shop did have a TTN 1897 clone as well...for $450!


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:14 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:24 pm
Posts: 1349
Location: Youngstown area east OH
I have a 97 made in 1907. It is a brush gun - cylinder bore 26" long. That is what it was cataloged at back in the day. I still use it for small game. I also for laughs take it to the skeet range and it really does work well. One of the reasons it is called a 97 is that it has 97 moving parts. That is the way John browning designed it.


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:11 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:31 pm
Posts: 17883
Location: Kearney NE
Red Cent;

The piddly amount of shooting you did with a '97, like 60 shots a week and a lot of practice, wouldn't bake a good wart on a bullfrog's butt compared to how many shells most "well used" but still very good condition original Model '97 have had run through them.

My dad used to shoot a bit of Trap when I was a kid. One of his squad mates had an old Black Diamond grade Trap model 1897. It had been shot so many times there was very little blue on it, and the checkering on the grip and forearm were all but impossible to see. It didn't get that way by him fondeling it every chance he got. Well maybe it did, that man shot one heck of a lot of Trap, a lot of Trap. The old' 97s can take it!

A clone would have to be one heck of a shotgun to be better than an original Winchester. Really the worst part of the '97 was the exposed hammer, next, the number of moving and exposed parts. They needed regular serious cleaning and oiling. Oh yes, they could be neglected and shot for it seems like forever, but they lasted a lot longer when the operator took care of it.

There were a few of those old masterpieces that had quite a little Black Powder shot in them too. That didn't help the cleaning much!

I'm more into Model 12s, but someday, I just may break down and get a nice ol' '97 myself!

BP

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 Post subject: Re: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:54 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:00 am
Posts: 1009
Burnt Powder wrote:
I'm more into Model 12s, but someday, I just may break down and get a nice ol' '97 myself!
BP


BP,

Of your more than 10,000 posts this is probably the wisest thing I have ever heard you say!

Slidehammer


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:53 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
Burnt Powder, you do have a way with words.

My solid frame, over a period of eight years has about 20,000 rounds ran through it. The point I was making that the guys from 1897 to now rarely fired that many rounds in that span of time. In addition my point was that with the shooting and the rough treatment the shotgun receives during a run and gun match, mine is still going strong.
Imagine the point of the stage where we run to our shotgun. As I shoulder the gun with my strong hand, I grab two rounds from the belt, slam one in the chamber, fire, eject, slam the other one in and fire. Repeat if there are more targets. And we slamfire most of the time. Hold that trigger down and feed her rounds.

http://www.spencerhoglund.com/worldrecords.html

Scroll down to shotgun (Open shotgun 4 shots) and be amazed.

I believe skills we develop with the shotgun, pistol, and rifle are difficult to comprend unless viewed.

I believe these videos will illustrate the necessary abuse to the firearms for the sake of speed. In a "stage/scenario" we fire (most of the time) 10 pistol, 10 rifle, and 6 shotgun.
I have my grandfathers M12 and other Grandpas Wingmaster. Both were hunters but in their 80 some years each never came close to shooting that much.

In eight years of Cowboy, Norinco came out with three generations of M97 (solid frame) clones and a replica M1887 lever shotgun. The first gen was junk. Soft steel and a lot of rough edges. Third gen tricked out will work. A well known gunsmith and shooter called Coyote Cap was responsible for the Norinco in Cowboy. He could take the clone and make a nice shooter out of it.
http://www.coyotecap.com/index1.htm

You will find that while the inexpensive Norinco tricked out by Cap is a shooter, most cowboys yearn for the Winchester M97.
I also have a replica Winchester M1893 clone made by Norinco and purchased from Cap. Cap worked with Norinco and developed a shotgun that took the strength of the 1893 and the updates to it that resulted in the M97. One strong, a little heavy, but a real nice shotgun. 18 1/2" barrel with screw in chokes.

For eight years I cleaned the 97 by spraying a good coat of Remoil (spray can) on the interior of the receiver, bolt, behind the hammer, and down the barrel and mag tube. Stand somewhere with the barrel pointing down for about 10 minutes. With barrel still pointing down, drench the same with liberal amounts of Remoil. Then I take air and blow out the entire gun. Stand with barrel down.
Same with my Winchester 1873 rifles and my Ruger 3 screws. Some care is taken to not get too much oil on the wood. Works great.

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: Re: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:22 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:00 am
Posts: 1009
Red Cent wrote:
My solid frame, over a period of eight years has about 20,000 rounds ran through it. The point I was making that the guys from 1897 to now rarely fired that many rounds in that span of time.


Red Cent,

You might be surprised the number of rounds some '97's have seen... Over a short period of time, or over a long time....

I won't bore you with my '97 numbers although they top 20,000.

It might interest you what Winchester had to say about '97s and the numbers of rounds one time though....

Slidehammer

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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:38 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
I have owned a number of these great old guns. I have found that in some cases they are tight, very little wear. You can tell by looking at the top of the hammer where it rides on the underside of the bolt and you can tell by the side play of the bolt when the action is open. If it is a takedown, put together it may rattle.
Most have cracks in the wrist of the stock and are generally soaked with oil where the wood meets receiver.
Most of these particular guns have shiny bore with patina on the outside. They ain't been used a lot. I have four takedowns and two solid frames. I purchased one of the solid frames from and estate. Not as in millionaire but as in hoe farmer. Its beautiful. Used very little.

Again, we Cowboys are pretty rough on the long guns. When we finish with the shotgun and we have to move to the next gun, we do not gently lay it down. As a past IPSC shooter, I agree that 20,000 rounds ain't a lot, but the M97 takes alickin' and keeps on tickin'.
Have you watched the videos?

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:59 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
http://www.carolinacowboys.us/vb/showthread.php?t=4802

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:40 am 
Gunsmith
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 906
Location: St. Louis area
Slam firing during any competition is a critical safety issue that cannot be condoned any more than fanning the hammer of a revolver by a novice could be considered acceptable.
I do not believe anyone should recommend the slamfire technique as a viable shooting method, especially for mechanisms such as the 1897, since it has parts not meant to be safely operated in that manner.
The safety of the operator and spectators should not be discounted.
The sear is to some extent (or a great extent, in some examples) being released on those guns DURING THE LOCKING PHASE, not AFTER, as in the same operation of a Model-12, for instance.
Using the gun in that manner is not just an alternative to regular firing, it is mechanically an accident waiting to happen, regardless of how many times you have dodged the bullet or what anyone else says. PERIOD.

I had one example here abused in that fashion by the owner until it FIRED OUT OF BATTERY and broke the bolt in half.
That's right- the head of the bolt sheared off, and I was the one that had to make the rest of the parts work with a replacement bolt.
He did realize how lucky he was to avoid serious injury, and was basically mad at himself for listening to some goof that said he could shoot really fast if he pumped the gun and held the trigger. EXPENSIVE LESSON, but not deadly, in this instance.

Slam firing a 97 is similar to neutral dropping your automatic transmissioned vehicle with the accelerator floored before engaging the shifter- it may survive a number of such abuses, but it may turn into the "shift too far", (if I might paraphrase from "A Bridge too Far") and that has less likelihood of creating collateral damage with spectators or operator.

Please don't use that unsafe method, and don't tell others to give it a try, especially since they may not have a gun as well-maintained or reliable as you think yours must be for any such action to be considered as anything less than foolhardy.

I don't wish anyone ill, and I would be the first to recommend that any such operating of a 97 at a cowboy match was grounds for disbarment from any competitions.
The injury to somebody out for a pleasurable shooting experience may be blood on whose hands- the shooter or comic relief that says "Hey, let's try something I saw..."?

And I thought cowboy matches were supposed to be concerned with safety as uppermost in thought.
Thanks for setting me straight, in that regard.
If I hear of any of them allowing this type of shooting again, I will tell everybody just what I am telling you here, now.

Safety rules changes are in order, and pronto.

[email protected]

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:27 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
Kirby,
There are around 70000 SASS members worldwide. They organized in the 80s. NC has 15 active and affiliated clubs. By the way, SASS is a not-for-profit corp. Some guys got tired of IPSC and said "What if...." .

Please go watch the video with the pump shotgun. We are not concerned about the shotgun breaking. Thats why I take extra pistols, rifles, and shotguns, to a match.

Slam firing is not a safety issue with us. Operating a weapon in an unsafe manner is a safety issue.

By the way, we are NOT allowed to "fan" the six shooter and we do not fast draw. We can "sliphammer". That is a technique that I use when the targets are big and close. As soon as you line up the sights hit the hammer for 5 rounds. May be multiple targets.

Anyway, thats how we play. If you would, google SASS. Find "affiliated clubs" This will bring up a map. Click on your state and it will tell you who and where the clubs are.
See you down the trail.

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:18 am 
Gunsmith
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 906
Location: St. Louis area
Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done, especially when there is no guarantee that it can continuously be done safely.
Perhaps I was not being specific enough in my explanation:
slam firing is not safe with a Winchester 1897! ----------(Other mechanisms, different situation, different explanation)
The firing pin block may very well be abused from years of shooting and having the lock-up slowly loosen on the carrier/bolt juncture, and if a burr or dirt impedes the carrier clakking home while the trigger is simultaneously releasing the sear (that may very well be worn, gunked, or otherwise partially blocked from full engagement, or have the sear spring retaining screw coming loose, etc.) and the trigger may have been excessively adjusted past normal travel via the trigger stop screw-

these are just a few of the factors that may combine to make that perfect gunfire technique into an unfortunate "reality bites" moment. The hammer may be falling while the lockup is still in doubt, and that worn firing pin block (or cracked screw or wear of the firing pin contact, etc.) is your fuse in the dynamite, and I am sure that SASS hasn't considered all of those possibilities.

I'm not talking about the mere fact of a gun breaking, like the example mentioned in my previous post.
I don't believe that 70,000 shooters or you want to have any unsafe techniques in use, but this is even less safe than shooting a hammer double with the triggers wired down. At least then you figure that the gun is fully closed and locked before they grab at the "rabbit ears". No such assurance with the multitude of 97's and their various mechanical conditions beyond all of our control.

I do believe that they may not have had a sufficient realization about the danger potential that I have recognized and tried to impart to you here.
Anyone that fails to recognize the significance and truth of my statements can only delay the advancement of safety vs. tradition and will show me that truth is not a cure-all.

Techniques mentioned by shooters will be noticed and repeated by others with a similar weapon but without the benefit of a gunsmith examination to determine whether their weapon suffers from mechanical safety issues much like those I just mentioned. A perfect 1897 gun in a perfect shooting situation is a rare condition, indeed.
I have seen enough unintended disasters to make me want to do all that I can to help reduce the possibility of them multiplying. These situations may never come to light to readers here, and just because you haven't heard of the problem or haven't seen the blood, doesn't mean that there was no liability on the part of another.

If that technique continues to be allowed, I may soon be wondering if safety is a serious concern if it is construed as taking away a bit of the fun.

I am not wanting to be known for spoiling any body's outing or making any particular person embarrassed, but this safety problem is bigger than my or anyone else's ego warrants.

I wonder if there will be (and would appreciate) any shows of support for my position from courageous responders willing to buck what may be the apparent prevailing current. That is another gauge of the fortitude of the reader.

[email protected]

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2
"kirbythegunsmith",

I don't know if you are correct or not (though I do know several nationally known "97" smiths that slamfire the "97" routinely), but as I read your response I see someone who cannot abide disagreement with his stated opinion.

Are you really the only one who is capible of speaking the truth? Are only those that agree with you capable of being brave?

Get a life dude, you cannot control the actions of others. You have provided your opinion on this subject and fulfilled your perceved obligation as far as warning others about your safety concerns. The additional threats and implications that only you know the "truth" of the matter is just BS.


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:43 pm 
Gunsmith
Gunsmith
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 906
Location: St. Louis area
If I was only stating an opinion, why do I have so many specific details about operation and mechanical issues?

I know there was no possibility for you to disprove my statements, so you try to camouflage them by calling them "opinions" and that I couldn't possibly tolerate having them questioned.

Ad hominem attacks were supposed to be left behind in Junior High, but somebody got left behind a little too long. For somebody who admits he doesn't know if I am correct, your level of bile is unsuited to your knowledge base, so why go off half-cocked?

That must be why you opened a new anonymous account to provide a platform for insulting me.
A gentleman would have sent me a "PM", but a hooligan splats his insults in public and hope nobody recognizes the lack of substance.

If you had seen something that was mere opinion, you would have been specific.
I, on the other hand, was very specific and detailed and had even more details that could have been piled on, as it were.

Since you left your argument in the gutter, I guess asking if I was the only one capable of speaking the truth was between you and me, the answer is an emphatic YES.

Naturally, when I was speaking of those with fortitude, I was referring to anybody not part of the lemming crowd- willing to state the obvious that the king has no clothes.

Trying to tell me to get a life must seem to be a SUPREME INSULT, but guess what- I am always going to call out the fools on the firing line and expose them for what they are- a danger to themselves and others not fit to play with tiddlywinks for fear they would put out an eye.

What makes you think that I can't control the actions of others? Did you never hear of advice being taken? How can advice be taken if left unspoken?
Mind pointing out the "threat and implication", or was that another figment of your immature imagination?

I don't recall posting that I was the only one with the truth here, just the only one with details to prove the point was valid.

At least your handle says it all- BONEZ the bonehead insultomatic. Better find a new title- I would suggest
TATERHEAD, except you wouldn't qualify as a french fry.

I normally wouldn't respond to such drivel, but any muddying of a safety issue has no business being left alone. I will ALWAYS CLARIFY ANY SAFETY ISSUE. PERIOD.

[email protected]

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:21 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
Kirby, I believe you came on way to strong and you will place this post in peril.

I hope that the moderators do not close the post because I have found it interesting including your opinions on slam firing the 97.

I have invited some cowboys and cowgirls to read this site and offer opinions either way. I did ask them to be nice; however your gruff remarks may have inflamed those who do not agree. Hopefully, there will be a number of cowboys and cowgirls that will be introduced to shotgunworld.com and become members.

In my opinion, I believe the moderators should strike your posts and let the rest of have a civil and respectful discussion on this subject. I think it would be unfair to remove all of us from this discussion.

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:55 am 
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Posts: 470
Location: Asheboro, NC
Does anyone have a website filled with resources on the different generations of the Norinco 1897s? I have always wanted a Trench Gun, but finding real deal 1897s are either worn out, and/or too expensive. Buying a used Norinco IMO would be a better option for me, but I know the early ones were a crapshoot.

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 Post subject: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:18 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 191
Location: McLeansville, NC
556A2,
In a previous post on this thread, I posted the website address of Coyote Cap. Cap sells the N1897 and the N1887 lever shotgun. While there a number of excellent gunsmiths, Cap knows the Norinco. Be aware that there are some very well known gunsmiths that will not work on the Norinco nor the replicas of the Colt Lightning.

Some of the first repros of the Colt Lightning repros were terrible. Something akin to the Norinco. As more and more of the CL found their way to gunsmiths some knowledgeable gunsmiths tweaked the gun to run good to very good. The CL is a cool looking gun but it does not compete with a short stroked, action slicked, Uberti reproduced Winchester 1873.

_________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze. Strangers are friends waiting to happen.
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS 29170L


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 Post subject: Re: re: Perils of Buying Used 1897?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:30 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2
kirbythegunsmith wrote:
If I was only stating an opinion, why do I have so many specific details about operation and mechanical issues?

I know there was no possibility for you to disprove my statements, so you try to camouflage them by calling them "opinions" and that I couldn't possibly tolerate having them questioned.

Ad hominem attacks were supposed to be left behind in Junior High, but somebody got left behind a little too long. For somebody who admits he doesn't know if I am correct, your level of bile is unsuited to your knowledge base, so why go off half-cocked?

That must be why you opened a new anonymous account to provide a platform for insulting me.
A gentleman would have sent me a "PM", but a hooligan splats his insults in public and hope nobody recognizes the lack of substance.

If you had seen something that was mere opinion, you would have been specific.
I, on the other hand, was very specific and detailed and had even more details that could have been piled on, as it were.

Since you left your argument in the gutter, I guess asking if I was the only one capable of speaking the truth was between you and me, the answer is an emphatic YES.

Naturally, when I was speaking of those with fortitude, I was referring to anybody not part of the lemming crowd- willing to state the obvious that the king has no clothes.

Trying to tell me to get a life must seem to be a SUPREME INSULT, but guess what- I am always going to call out the fools on the firing line and expose them for what they are- a danger to themselves and others not fit to play with tiddlywinks for fear they would put out an eye.

What makes you think that I can't control the actions of others? Did you never hear of advice being taken? How can advice be taken if left unspoken?
Mind pointing out the "threat and implication", or was that another figment of your immature imagination?

I don't recall posting that I was the only one with the truth here, just the only one with details to prove the point was valid.

At least your handle says it all- BONEZ the bonehead insultomatic. Better find a new title- I would suggest
TATERHEAD, except you wouldn't qualify as a french fry.

I normally wouldn't respond to such drivel, but any muddying of a safety issue has no business being left alone. I will ALWAYS CLARIFY ANY SAFETY ISSUE. PERIOD.

[email protected]


As previously posted, I don't have the knowledge to argue about the mechanics of the '97, I was however, sharing my experience, commenting on the impression you give that only you can be right about this subject, and your holier than thou attitude in general.

I gain much information from various forums (including this one) and am certain, after visiting your web page, that you have more mechanical knowledge about this issue than I and I appreciate your dedication to safety. However, as previously stated, I had this conversation several years ago with a 'smith I personally trust and will continue to follow his advice.

Your response, filled with vitriol, appears to confirm the statements in my previous post. It is always interesting the watch "The Emperor" prove you right.




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