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 Post subject: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:18 am 
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This should be of interest to some discerning shooters, and is educational to those readers unfamiliar with many of my previous postings.

Many of the pictures that I posted have been shown elsewhere, but never in one complete set in one spot.

56 K warning, OK?

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=187505

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Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:45 am 
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Well, I guess I have just been lucky, and unless someone comes out with something that really grabs me, I don't guess I will have to worry about it the rest of the way. I have shot every barrel I have ever owned to determine POI and pattern, and while the pattern results have varied a bit, I haven't had one bad off on POI yet. And that includes factory barrels from Mossberg, Browning, Savage, Stevens, Beretta, Remington, Winchester, Bernadelli, Stoeger, Ithaca, H&R, and AYA. Most of those did not have choke tubes, but I have had tubes installed by Stan Baker, Ralph Walker, and a fellow whose name eludes me in Oklahoma, with excellent results, also. I have seen some like you describe for sure, and a lot of them I couldn't tell if it was factory work or not, but I usually assumed it was aftermarket. Having seen the jigs at Remington it appeard to me someone would have to work at it to screw it up.
Mike Orlen told us how he does things to avoid problems, if you don't mind, how do you do things to fix problems?

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:12 am 
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Kirby,

I float the idea, on occasions, with other shooters, and sometimes smith types, that the choke bore recess might not be concentric with the bore of the tube ahead of the choke.

Many minds go blank at this time.

And you find that you are just wasting words, on 98% of the peeps.

There are those that will say "chokes r chokes", or "see mike orlen", or "I guess I have just been lucky". Anything except visiting the problem.

Thank you for the thread.

Thank you,
Longshooter

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:57 am 
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Thanks for the close up photos. It's certainly food for thought, and I'm going to go check my shotgun shortly.

How did you make sure that the "bore" of the camera was perfectly coaxial with the bore of the barrel?

Are these photos representative samples of the problems that you've seen or are these all of the problems that you've seen. As a gunsmith, I assume that you've had far more barrels go through your hands than darn near most of us. Can you ballpark a figure for the percentage of bad choke tube installations? Does it vary with manufacturer?

I'm curious to see if these are just freak occurrences, or if this happens on a fairly regular basis, and we've just never noticed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:25 am 
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Longshooter, what the hell are you trying to say? How do you suggest I 'visit the problem' when I haven't run across it in 46 years? I tend to look at things before I buy them, and it seems to avoid problems. I can see where you might not be able to see what Kirby is addressing in some cases, and yet I have not had a problem. Rather than second sight, I attribute it to luck. I am not saying there are not installations with non-concentric or angular issues. I said I had always 'assumed' most of the bad ones were aftermarket having seen one factory precedure, and Kirby indicated he had seen some bad factory jobs.
I am not saying problems are not out there, but what the percentage is I have no idea. I dare say a gunsmith probably sees a lot more with issues than without.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:02 am 
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Virginian,

I don't mean to offend you, or others. I am trying to bring light to the idea that it is about time that we start some open discussion on these and others matters mentioned, instead of quickly dismissing things, as if they do not concern us.

There is alot of politics of personal destruction on this forum, which is counterproductive. Instead of dismissing a topic out of hand, I think that we need to open the dialogue box instead, while respecting each other in the process.

I have asked questions on the gunsmithing forum, concerning this very thing (choke work), but to no avail, because most are not inclined towards it. It does not however, mean the problem doesn't exist. Quite the contrary. I believe non-concentric chokes are the norm, not the exception.

Again, if I offended you, please accept my humble apology.

Thank you,
Longshooter

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:53 am 
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Last edited by yesno on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Sorry if I took off too fast as well. I have read enough of Kirby's posts to think he knows a bit about what he is doing. That's why I wanted to hear his fix procedure, particularly if he has ever done it without having to shorten the barrel(s). I had Ralph Walker adjust the POI on one tube of a SxS years ago, but it was a fixed choke, and I would think you could do the same with tubes, but it would have to be a real precision procedure.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Virginian,

I noticed that you were asking for the fix procedure, or method. I, too, am very interested in this topic and discussion. I have a 14x40 lathe with which I hope to be doing some corrective surgery by winter. Whether it be correcting tubes, or chokes, or custom work on the same. Cut and correct is a new way to think about it, if a shorter barrel can be tolerated. I am welcoming any input Kirby might have.

Thank you,
Longshooter

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:34 pm 
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yesno wrote:
Dial calipers and a set of telescoping bore gauges will confirm a choke is round or egg shaped. And some start round, only to become egg shaped after use.

Decent bore gauges are expensive and not many have them. So, we often tend to accept the manufacturer's word on bore diameter. Choke constriction can be easily measured with a Dial/Digital Caliper if you know how to use it. Concentricity cannot be measured with a dial caliper. It can be measured with a bore gauge, but you better know what you're doing or you will get the wrong readings.

Except for dropping it on the ground, how would a choke become egg shaped through use?

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:07 pm 
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Last edited by yesno on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:30 am 
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Kirby,
Have you ever heard of a properly made choke being 'worn out'?

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:43 am 
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Virginian wrote:
Longshooter, what the hell are you trying to say? How do you suggest I 'visit the problem' when I haven't run across it in 46 years? I tend to look at things before I buy them, and it seems to avoid problems. I can see where you might not be able to see what Kirby is addressing in some cases, and yet I have not had a problem. Rather than second sight, I attribute it to luck. I am not saying there are not installations with non-concentric or angular issues. I said I had always 'assumed' most of the bad ones were aftermarket having seen one factory precedure, and Kirby indicated he had seen some bad factory jobs.
I am not saying problems are not out there, but what the percentage is I have no idea. I dare say a gunsmith probably sees a lot more with issues than without.

I with ya V. I am not a gunsmith but for most of the time I get something to fix it's because it has something wrong with it!............Stands to reason I would see more bad ones than most folks. :wink: And if you had a "Barrel Butcher" in a nearby area I could see one guy getting more than his fair share of bad ones. But with all the ones out there and just the few hundred I've shot in my lifetime I don't see an epidemic.


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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Some responses:
I have seen crooked chokes in all manner of barrels and brands, and figure that I could make money betting that at least 8 of 10 of any guns taken off the shelf would be crooked enough for me to spot by eye. When I saw that $7000 trap double O/U with obviously crooked chokes installed, nobody is safe.

BTW, shooting a barrel for POI is not going to tell you if the choke is actually straight, and one article that I posted at my website pointed out the details that I will not use time and space here to repeat, but suffice to say that shooting a screw-in choke will only tell you point of impact, not whether there is a concurrent alignment issue that hasn't been discovered by direct examination.
That is the same as driving a car and noticing that it does not pull or drift on the road and presuming the front end is aligned. Measuring on the front-end alignment machine is definitive, and the drive on the road by the mechanic is used AFTERWARD to verify the efficacy of the alignment.

Fixing a crooked choke is best done by starting with a hacksaw. If a hole is already in the barrel, there may not be enough meat left to enlarge the existing hole to the point of parallel alignment to fit some oversize tube or choke.

I have seen plenty of tools to install chokes that were claimed to allow perfect alignment and knew that the selling was based on rosy thinking, at best, or a bad case of not knowing what "perfect" meant- similar to the meaning of "is". Anybody making use of those same tools might think that they were doing shooters a service by altering barrels with tools meant to make the buyer into an instant choke expert. I believe that is about as sensible as buying a box of wrenches and expecting to become an instant mechanic.

I saw the inherent problems with those installation tool varieties and have totally avoided association with aftermarket chokes so there would be no guilt by association for myself. I can install my custom chokes where insufficient room remains for American pattern choke holes. Then I make and fit the choke specifically to the individual barrel.

I am not saying it is impossible to have an aftermarket choke installed straight, but that the number of possible bad installation possibilities made me leery of using any mass-production system. One detail for sure is that the mass-produced chokes have no barrel bore precision fit to the choke like my individually made and fitted tubes. I have too much precision fitting built into each choke to have any comparison to typical production chokes of any brand.

Those photos posted were of barrels cut off by me, and are by no means anywhere near the total of bad ones removed, just some sampling to give some variety and meaning. The camera doesn't necessarily need perfect centering to show obvious error, and you might note that even though I do know how to verify camera alignment, the first picture had the camera near the low edge to show the viewer how close the tube was to the bore edge.

Choke roundness and accuracy is not a normal issue, if talking within .002" or so, at least, but I have seen some that were farther off and some that varied in accuracy.
Chokes do not "wear" per se, but may be abused and distorted by heavy shot payloads or normal payloads if made from soft and/or defective materials. Any choke that I spot that has gone egg-shaped or out-of-round is not considered as a normal wear issue from normal use.
I am not referring to the subtleties associated with metal movement that must be addressed with gage-bloks and other highly accurate specimens, and choke movement at those minimal levels are left to theoretical discussions.

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Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Nick Sisley, in the November 1986 issue of the American Rifleman, covered the subject of eccentric / crooked chokes well, also touching on crooked barrels. Virtually all barrels are not perfectly straight, nor are factory chokes.

The question then turns as to what is problematic in a tangible sense. As Sisley pointed up, crooked barrels and chokes may still shoot acceptably straight.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:16 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Nick Sisley, in the November 1986 issue of the American Rifleman, covered the subject of eccentric / crooked chokes well, also touching on crooked barrels. Virtually all barrels are not perfectly straight, nor are factory chokes.

The question then turns as to what is problematic in a tangible sense. As Sisley pointed up, crooked barrels and chokes may still shoot acceptably straight.

And for the most part POA & POI are just intersecting lines that vary with each gun, barrel, load and about a half dozen other variables trying make something perfect that seems to work pretty good already seems a little overboard. Since most shotguns are not bench rest shooters but with moving targets where human error is more often than not the cause for a miss I think for myself anyway "close is good enough" :wink: But a miss for me don't cost me that much so I can't justify paying for perfection that I can't deliver as the trigger man. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:56 pm 
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PhilG wrote:
But a miss for me don't cost me that much so I can't justify paying for perfection that I can't deliver as the trigger man. :lol:

I completely agree that shotgunning is not an exact science. But, this discussion is not just about the precision of the choke; it's also about the safety of the choke. An off center can be hazardous. At the very least you need to check each and every choke to see if it seats in the barrel properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Edited due to hang fire. :roll:

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Last edited by Rastoff on Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:11 pm 
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PhilG wrote:
And for the most part POA & POI are just intersecting lines that vary with each gun, barrel, load and about a half dozen other variables trying make something perfect that seems to work pretty good already seems a little overboard. Since most shotguns are not bench rest shooters but with moving targets where human error is more often than not the cause for a miss I think for myself anyway "close is good enough"


Of course you are generally right-- but that doesn't tell the whole story. Only a very, very small part of good scattergunning is equipment-related. We don't like to hear that, though-- it makes our brains bleed and other unsavory things. Talent doesn't come in a bottle, and it is a certainty that when the best competitors net their trophies, the brand of gun, brand of choke, or brand of ammo has very little to do with it. People like to ignore that little bit of information, of course, and that's why sponsors like it when their stuff is associated with winning. Their stuff has nothing to do with winning, of course, but that doesn't change things-- Michael Jordan has sold far more gym shoes than most, and his endorsement is worth mega-bucks as a result. Air Jordans have made no one a better basketball player, though.

What we all can do, though, is practice and improve. Personally, I want a light hit or miss to be completely my fault, not due to a crummy barrel, choke, or crappola shell.

Confidence is a big, big part of shooting success. Confidence that your equipment works as it is supposed to is a part of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Crooked choke tube holes discussed, pictured
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:31 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
PhilG wrote:
And for the most part POA & POI are just intersecting lines that vary with each gun, barrel, load and about a half dozen other variables trying make something perfect that seems to work pretty good already seems a little overboard. Since most shotguns are not bench rest shooters but with moving targets where human error is more often than not the cause for a miss I think for myself anyway "close is good enough"


Of course you are generally right-- but that doesn't tell the whole story. Only a very, very small part of good scattergunning is equipment-related. We don't like to hear that, though-- it makes our brains bleed and other unsavory things. Talent doesn't come in a bottle, and it is a certainty that when the best competitors net their trophies, the brand of gun, brand of choke, or brand of ammo has very little to do with it. People like to ignore that little bit of information, of course, and that's why sponsors like it when their stuff is associated with winning. Their stuff has nothing to do with winning, of course, but that doesn't change things-- Michael Jordan has sold far more gym shoes than most, and his endorsement is worth mega-bucks as a result. Air Jordans have made no one a better basketball player, though.

What we all can do, though, is practice and improve. Personally, I want a light hit or miss to be completely my fault, not due to a crummy barrel, choke, or crappola shell.

Confidence is a big, big part of shooting success. Confidence that your equipment works as it is supposed to is a part of that.

Well I would take that as an endorsment for buying your way to the top????!!!!!
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I think as a former racer you should do what you can to eliminate as many variables as you can afford. But then you have to take what is in your hands and do the best you can. Sometimes you spend more on the little things than than you can justify in performance results. Those vary with each situation but are usualy there no matter who is doing the analizing. I get more people asking for miracles than sound advice everyday.............Biggest contributor?!!!! THE INTERNET!!!!!Opinion without accountability. Not everybody needs perfect and as for SAFETY! Most gun holders don't know what they are looking at anyway! I wish more would take their problems to the PROS on here IN PERSON and not sift through a ton of opinions and make a mistake that may cost their life! That said none of the web sites I have ever read the fine print on said you should trust a [email protected] thing you read on them. The venders need cash to survive and if they give ALL they know on here it's money in the toilet. Post just enough for them to ask questions and no more......WELCOME TO LIMBO!!!!!




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