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 Post subject: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:53 am 
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that 2&3/4" shells won't pattern well in a 3&1/2" chambered gun. Has anyone here done any patterning with this combination and found this to be true, or not? Thanks.




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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:18 am 
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Not from my experince with several different 3 1/2" auto loaders. Each gun, choke, and load combination will yield different results. Some times a shorter chambered gun will pattern a 2 ¾” load better than the 3 ½” models and sometimes it’s the other way around.

I’ve seen the bore diameter make a difference with certain loads but, nothing from chamber length.


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:33 pm 
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While I haven't patterned my 3.5" chambered gun using 2 3/4" loads, I can confirm your statement that it has, indeed, been said that the shorter shell often don't pattern well in this chamber. In fact, I seen this written by some writers who seem to know what they're talking about re: shotguns.

TT


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:33 pm 
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While I haven't patterned my 3.5" chambered gun using 2 3/4" loads, I can confirm your statement that it has, indeed, been said that the shorter shell often don't pattern well in this chamber. In fact, I seen this written by some writers who seem to know what they're talking about re: shotguns.

TT


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Didn't make a difference in my Citori Satin Lightning or my Benelli SBE II. If you find out it does make a difference, PLEASE don't tell my shotguns...I want em to keep shootin just like they do! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:13 am 
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Dove Hunter wrote:
I seem to recall reading somewhere that 2&3/4" shells won't pattern well in a 3&1/2" chambered gun. Has anyone here done any patterning with this combination and found this to be true, or not? Thanks.


Yes and no. Pattern percentages with the same choke degrade by up to 10% when using lead loads in an overly long chamber. That isn't remotely the same as saying "not well." It is true not with only 3-1/2 in. chambers, but also with 2-3/4 in. lead loads in a 3 in. chamber or 2-1/2 in. shells in a 3 inch chamber.

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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:41 am 
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[/quote]Yes and no. Pattern percentages with the same choke degrade by up to 10% when using lead loads in an overly long chamber. That isn't remotely the same as saying "not well." It is true not with only 3-1/2 in. chambers, but also with 2-3/4 in. lead loads in a 3 in. chamber or 2-1/2 in. shells in a 3 inch chamber.[/quote]

Sounds like Brownings propaganda to support their target models at one time. The only way to find out for sure would be to take a 2 3/4" gun and test it with several loads. Then lengthen the chamber to 3" along with the forcing cone and use those same loads again. Then again to 3 1/2" with the same process. Once done repete the whole process on at least a few more guns to establish any pattern due to chamber length.

I don't know of anyone who has gone though the labor of doing this. It's note worthy that those that actually have a 3 1/2" model/s and have patterned with shorter shells don't report pattern problems. The rule that each gun, choke, and load combination will yeild differnt results will always stand. Never the less, you would think there would be some sort of consensus among shooters with the long chambered guns that supported poorer patterns with shorter shells.

Makes you wonder how the Beretta AL391/Urika 2 with their 3" chambers and degraded patterns became such a popular clays model.


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:56 am 
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It one of those things lacking in "for sures." 10% can be attributed to the individual shell. Oberfell and Thompson found that short shells in long chambers helped pattern efficiencies. They also found that unpolished choke tubes out patterned mirror-polished choke tubes. No one likes using unpolished tubes that I know of.

Nigel Teague will tell you that continuous taper chokes are better than conical-parallel. O & T showed that conical parallel was superior. Benelli claims (and shows) that cryogenic barrels improve patterns. Shotgun manufacturers are hardly rushing to univerally employ this.

The way the statement is phrased, "won't pattern well" is incorrect. The problem is that no one seems to know what "patterning well" is supposed to mean in the first place. Pattern percentage is easy enough to find. The highest percentage pattern may not be the best one. If it was, more folks would be pheasant hunting with turkey chokes.

If a shotgun with a longer chamber needs another .005 - 010 in. of choke to give you the pattern you want, then you just use another .005 - .010 of constriction. It doesn't make a lot of difference how you get there as long as you arrive at the same place.

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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:15 pm 
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The simple fact is that the chamber length will have no effect on the pattern at all. Baker made an .800" dia barrel that had no chamber at all and it patterned like a hammer. That 10% BS is just that. Crappy data gathering makes for crappy data. Or, just make it up like most gun writers do.

What will make a difference is the shell you drop in it relative to the choke that is at the other end of the barrel. You have to do your own experimenting since most experimenters don't know what they're doing.

WtS


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:33 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Dove Hunter wrote:
I seem to recall reading somewhere that 2&3/4" shells won't pattern well in a 3&1/2" chambered gun. Has anyone here done any patterning with this combination and found this to be true, or not? Thanks.


Yes and no. Pattern percentages with the same choke degrade by up to 10% when using lead loads in an overly long chamber. That isn't remotely the same as saying "not well." It is true not with only 3-1/2 in. chambers, but also with 2-3/4 in. lead loads in a 3 in. chamber or 2-1/2 in. shells in a 3 inch chamber.



"...degrade up to 10% ..."

can that be cured with a different size choke, either larger or smaller?


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:15 pm 
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It is all based on pattern percentage. Worc is correct, Browning, along with other manufacturers, has published this on and off over the years. Browning still does: http://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=102.

As long as the majority of folks don't bother to pattern their shotguns it won't matter much. I wouldn't expect any manufacturer that sells 3-1/2 in. guns to point up what patterns or does not pattern well with shorter shells. That of course includes a Maxus, an Xtrema 2, A400, SBE-II's, etc. If 3-1/2 in. chambers made target loads actually pattern better, then there would be no reason not to have 3-1/2 in. or even 4 inch chambers on most guns-- including 16, 20 and 28 gauge. Caesar Guerini uses 2-3/4 in. chambers in their sporting guns. They hardly have to, but they feel shooting shells matched to the chamber length helps more than it hurts.

By degrade I'm referring to pattern percentage with the same constriction. Pattern even-ness or lack of patchiness isn't something easily counted. So, yes, if you want a 70% pattern it doesn't matter a great deal if a .025 in. or .035 in. constriction gets you there, you still arrive in the same general place.

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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:08 pm 
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I don't see anyone claiming that using a shorter shell in a longer chamber will improve patterns. What I see is that every one who has patterned their 3 1/2" gun/s with the shorter shells don't see pattern issues. If the longer chamber did in fact improve patterns with shorter shells. I agree that all target guns would come with the longer chamber. The same goes for having matched lengths being better. If that were the case all target guns would only come with 2 3/4" chambers.

The 10% pattern increase is just marketing hype as I said earlier. It's no different than any of these companies claiming all the recoil reductions over the competition.


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:13 pm 
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Oberfell & Thompson found precisely that and they weren't touting anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:18 pm 
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I have done testing with various chambers and modifications and can state that the theory of a shell matched to the chamber (or vice-versa) is necessary if you are attempting to gain the ultimate pattern, especially with lead or other shot capable of deformation.

The test of a chamber vs. shell length was discussed by me a few years back with somebody thinking my opinion wasn't worth consideration, so he tried to make a federal case of my assertions.

He wanted to use the same argument about test procedures as WORC, but then he even went so far as to say it would be impossible to match the forcing cone taper angle/finish and so forth in the length progression to make the test repeatable- and consequently was unprovable and I was supposed to be out of luck (and he thought I would then lose the argument) at that point.

(Just because shooters don't see issues present when they pattern a few guns with different chamber lengths and chokes, doesn't mean that there are no differences that can be proven. Physics does not vanish due to somebody having inadequate discernment.)

I told him that his reasoning and procedures were coming from the wrong direction to make the test repeatable and not impossible to prove a point.

The barrel must start with a longer chamber and be shortened to keep the choke, bore, forcing cone, and finish unaltered from one test to the next in progression. Then the only loss or alteration is the fraction of an inch of barrel length per variation.

He didn't understand or believe my being able to do that type of test, but a person's lack of understanding does not make something an impossibility.

I am telling the world that a chamber that fits the shell better for length etc. will make a better pattern possible in the same manner that match rifles use precision chambers to shoot tight groups.

A precise chamber may not always ensure an ultimate pattern or group, but you can't get the ultimate performance without the necessary precision in all sections of the system.

A shotgun barrel, rifle barrel, or target pistol barrel is really a combination of parts/sections that work together toward a goal of precision shooting. That is why the changing of a choke to gain a lost percentage is only going to work to a point and never allow the best results if one section is a drag upon the others. A long chamber that deforms lead pellets more than a shorter precision chamber will never get that excess deformity removed by going through a tighter choke, right? Pattern uniformity is bound to suffer at that point.

A race car can't win without lots of power, and it won't run fast without having that power transferred to the pavement, and all of this won't make a mediocre driver a winner- just the same as a street Buick won't win Daytona with the best driver at the wheel.

If the best combination requires that you have ABC together, you can't expect AC, aBC, or ABc to work the best.

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Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:18 am 
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sepp wrote:
Didn't make a difference in my Citori Satin Lightning or my Benelli SBE II. If you find out it does make a difference, PLEASE don't tell my shotguns...I want em to keep shootin just like they do! :lol:

Same here with my 870 ESM. I patterned it with 2.75, 3 and 3.5" shells from Federal, Winchester and Remington and found that the Federal Game-Shok (1oz #7.5, 3.25 Dram/1290 fps through a RemChoke modified 28" barrel) loads patterned best of the three giving me my average of 50% at 40 yards.

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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Shotguns are shotguns and rifles are rifles. They have about nothing in common ballistically besides they both go boom. Long chambers **may** have wad sealing problems. That has been contended in prior discussions and wad choice seems to be related. PRESUMING that is not a factor, the length of the chamber is obviously meaningless since the chamberless guns pattern just fine - see "chamberless guns" past and present - not a new idea at all.

It's a shotgun. Find a load your barrel likes. Get over it.

WtS


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:51 pm 
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I don't wish to appear unkind or inconsiderate of anyone joining in the conversation, but correctness must ultimately prevail over ignorance.
Take this in the spirit of correction, rather than personal disapproval.
---------------------------------

Someone stating that they are unable to see any relationship between a rifle and shotgun beyond the noise unfortunately strains the envelope of credulity.
For example, a crooked crown will reduce rifle accuracy and will affect performance of a shotgun barrel. Any number of other factors could be stated to disprove the original notion of lack of commonality.

The argument of a "chamberless" barrel is exactly the opposite of expectations included in the stated supposition, since there is no presence of any forcing cone. The presence of the forcing cone IS THE FOCAL POINT of the damage, and the location distance is what varies with the chamber length. No forcing cone (strictly in a specialty/uncommon barrel) equals no basis for comparison.

There cannot be a coneless barrel argument thrown into the mix unless a failure to understand generates statements that muddy the waters, rather than adding clarity.

I can understand an attempt to simplify an idea, but some don't lend themselves to continual reduction to a lowest common denominator without losing critical elements needed to apply informed reasoning.

The forcing cone acts as a calculated bore obstruction to the sphericity of lead pellets, and the gain of velocity of the shot in a longer chamber before striking the forcing cone is certain to add to the deformity that would occur in a shorter chamber, so longer chamber/more deformity is as simple to understand as is possible, and is impossible to deny.
Period.

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_________________
Gunsmithing website:
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Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:37 pm 
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"The forcing cone acts as a calculated bore obstruction to the sphericity of lead pellets, and the gain of velocity of the shot in a longer chamber before striking the forcing cone is certain to add to the deformity that would occur in a shorter chamber, so longer chamber/more deformity is as simple to understand as is possible, and is impossible to deny.
Period."

And I would have to say eminently deniable, impossible to verify, and minuscule at best. Right at the level of "who cares" and "worry about something important". You can make a big deal about anything you like and it will not change the simple fact that it is a shotgun. A shotgun is not a precision instrument remotely like a rifle. Every time you pull the trigger something different happens. How can you attribute anything to the forcing cone when the pellets aren't even stacked the same way every time. Or necessarily even the same size. C'mon!! Not to mention any number of other just as important variables that are in action and recombination every time it goes boom.

I can only repeat - it's a shotgun, get over it. Find a load you and your gun likes and shoot it.

WtS


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:29 pm 
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I have a Citori with 3 1/2" chambers. It is my waterfowl gun, as well as my favorite skeet gun. I have experienced superior kills with 3" and 2 3/4" loads over 3 1/2" loads hunting ducks ( this using remington wingmaster hd). Also, I recently ran 100 straight on the skeet range. If it doesn't pattern as well, you couldn't convince me without actually patterning the gun. I will do it this fall and post some results. Until then, I'll continue to have faith in skeet loads in big chambers.


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 Post subject: Re: Effect of 3.5" chamber on pattern with 2&3/4" shells
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Why would skeet, that is so easily accomplished with a 28 gauge, be used as basis for comparison? What does that show, exactly?



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