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 Post subject: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 7:43 pm 
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I just picked up a lightly used Beretta Urika II. When I got it home I noticed the "Cylinder" choke tube was cracked. These are Optima Plus chokes.

What are some causes of choke tube cracking? I've never seen a cracked choke before.

Thanks,
Dave



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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:27 pm 
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My first guess would be steel shot fired thru a non-steel rated choke tube.


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:35 pm 
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I would agree with DWT. Did You check the threads? Enough force to crack a tube cant be good for the threads or the concentricy of the bore. I would check it out very well before i would fire it. I would also contact the seller and ask about the cracked tube. Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Most likely a defective choke. Contact Bailey; I expect they will send you a few one. Optima Plus chokes are suitable for steel shot and the cylinder choke is the last one that would crack because of it - not likely the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:20 pm 
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DEG wrote:
Most likely a defective choke. Contact Bailey; I expect they will send you a few one. Optima Plus chokes are suitable for steel shot and the cylinder choke is the last one that would crack because of it - not likely the issue.


Exactly. Flaw in the metal.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:09 pm 
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DWT wrote:
My first guess would be steel shot fired thru a non-steel rated choke tube.

Really? A Cylinder choke that's not rated for steel? How's that possible? If the gun can handle it, surely a Cylinder choke can.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:26 am 
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Thanks for the input. I suspect the defective choke idea, as the other four chokes screw in and out easily. I'll see about contacting the previous owner as this shotgun was purchased off the consignment rack at the local club.

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:19 am 
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I doubt a material flaw. Not that it couldn't be, just that I'm sure they're at least black lighted before leaving the manufacturer and a much more likely cause would be shooting a loose choke. If the choke is backed out a round or so from tight it has room to expand. Being the thinest of the lot the cyl choke is the most likey to crack in a gun where the owner does not keep his chokes tight.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Bob Stander wrote:
I doubt a material flaw. Not that it couldn't be, just that I'm sure they're at least black lighted before leaving the manufacturer and a much more likely cause would be shooting a loose choke. If the choke is backed out a round or so from tight it has room to expand. Being the thinest of the lot the cyl choke is the most likey to crack in a gun where the owner does not keep his chokes tight.

Bob



Well then, it should have just "expanded". If it failed to expand that tiny amount. (either elastically or by plastic deformation), and instead, cracked, it was a material flaw.

Yes, they are hardened, but over hardening to the point of cracking is a flaw, albeit a manufacturing one.

Since the threads in the barrel itself, apparently were not damaged, (a much softer steel), whatever the cause, it didn't move very far in expansion.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:23 pm 
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jugchoke wrote:
Bob Stander wrote:
I doubt a material flaw. Not that it couldn't be, just that I'm sure they're at least black lighted before leaving the manufacturer and a much more likely cause would be shooting a loose choke. If the choke is backed out a round or so from tight it has room to expand. Being the thinest of the lot the cyl choke is the most likey to crack in a gun where the owner does not keep his chokes tight.

Bob



Well then, it should have just "expanded". If it failed to expand that tiny amount. (either elastically or by plastic deformation), and instead, cracked, it was a material flaw.

Yes, they are hardened, but over hardening to the point of cracking is a flaw, albeit a manufacturing one.

Since the threads in the barrel itself, apparently were not damaged, (a much softer steel), whatever the cause, it didn't move very far in expansion.



Dang.....sounds like I hit a nerve... :) Was that your gun Jug...? :cry:

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Bob Stander wrote:

Dang.....sounds like I hit a nerve... :) Was that your gun Jug...? :cry:

Bob


Nope Bob, not my gun!

It's just that I have been around guns, worked with metals of various kinds, along with pressure and defect analysis, for virtually all of my working life.

Just the voice of a lot of hands on experience in those types of things.

Now, I have seen barrel steel "crack" at the muzzle, sort of unexpectedly, until one realizes that it took a load of steel, air gun, BB's replacing a lead charge, no plastic cup wad whatsoever, and was a full choke, some 60 plus years ago now. Just a "kid", experimenting.

Sorry if my take on what happened here, hit one of your nerves. But actually a "good" choke, especially a cylinder bore one, should have been able to take the "low pressure" still left at the muzzle in this case. In fact, I have wrapped a vented choke with 4 layers of duct tape and it survived the first shot without perforation. (The second shot, stripped, (slid), the whole wrapping off and it went down range.) So there was enough pressure to loosen the adhesive, stretch the tape a bit, but not enough to perforate, or tear, the 4 layers of tape.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Jug,

Sounds like our backgrounds have us in the same boat...I don't mind you being captain as long as you are willing to navigate with all considerations in mind. I'm thinking in "LIKELY" terms and as far as I can remember the material of construction should be a 17 series stainless steel. A very good working material from a machining stand point but also one that does not have a very good flexibility with out cracking. You must take into consideration "screw in" chokes are tapered and as such fit into a tapered bore. When tight, a well fitted choke has no room for expansion and relys completely on the barrel bore for its strength. If you back the choke out even slightly then the barrel is in no position to offer any backup to the choke....therefore allowing it to expand slightly with each firing. Because the cylinder choke is the most suceptible to cracking it would make sense to me that the LIKELY cause for it to be cracked would be from shooting it loose.

OR

That at one point in its life it was frozen in its bore and was cracked during removal.

I have spoken to Briley at length about keeping chokes tight in their bore and they have told me cracking is a common result of loose chokes. As are a number of other things including blowing off the entire threaded section of the barrel.

Considering the base stock material and the way it is formed a defect in it is not likely. Even less likely would be a defect in a finished choke considering the inspection process they are subjected to. But alas, I am not saying you're wrong....I'm just say'n.. :wink:

Bob

P.S. I do not know what you mean by, "plastic deformation." Would you explain this and how it relates to the subject at hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:14 pm 
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Bob Stander and jugchoke;

You fellas have certainly given me a lot to think about. Thanks!

I'm going to try and take a picture showing the crack. Picture may not be this evening due to lighting conditions.

Regards,
Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Bob and Clyde (Jugchoke), in your posts you two have often reminded me of each other. Having had the pleasure of meeting both of you, I think I'll just sit back and enjoy this new "crew". :D

Warning to Bob, Clyde is an irascible old Missourian, about 100 years old and he definitely has opinions! :shock: :lol:

Warning to Clyde, Bob is one of them damn Louisiana Cajun types, about 60 years younger than you with an opinion or two of his own, but pretty laid back about it for a Cajun. :wink:

KK

PS to Clyde, you coming to the Food Bank Shoot on the 12th?

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:55 pm 
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The picture; Sorry about the size. I wanted the crack to show.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:18 pm 
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KK,

Did ya see how fast he replied to my nerve post...... :lol: I bet you are not suprised..! :) I think it was Jug's gun and he just doesn't want anyone to know.... :P

Think you could get him down here for some crawfish next year...?

Shootzum,

Nice pic.....I wish you had included both ends of the crack. I kind of expected to see the propagation point to be in the corner of the wrench slot cause Jug had me questioning my expert opinion. But, I was right after all....classic over pressure crack straight down the middle until it reached the flexible thin part. I bet it started in the middle of the straight portion.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:32 pm 
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I'll get a picture of the entire tube in the morning.

So by "over pressure" crack, you're saying it was most probably caused by shooting with the tube loose? I'm just trying to make sure I understand.

Thanks for all the comments.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Shootzum wrote:
I'll get a picture of the entire tube in the morning.

So by "over pressure" crack, you're saying it was most probably caused by shooting with the tube loose? I'm just trying to make sure I understand.

Thanks for all the comments.

Dave


Yep.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:33 pm 
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A choke tube does not fit into a tapered bore, and typical tubes don't have support from the barrel due to clearance issues built into the tolerances.

A tube cracking from being loose may be a problem that Briley commonly sees, but I don't know anyone else making that claim.

If one was to crack from being loose, I would think that the hole had a flaw in the interior that left a high point and concentrated stress in a localized area.

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 Post subject: Re: Cracked Choke Tube
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:21 am 
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I have seen shooters, and I use that word loosely here, run chokes out past a quarter inch, loose and not have them crack. (Just luck that a charge hadn't caught a lip and tried to turn the choke, outside in!) I go along with Kirby there and on fit up as well. The choke virtually stands alone as to strength, the tolerances not causing or allowing any real reinforcement by the barrel itself. Not until the choke deforms first and to a fair extent. The barrel wall, and threads do not lend any real strength to the choke, the threads just keep the choke from moving forward, along with the charge as it comes by.

Kirby also makes a good point, mentioning a stress riser. While such should not exist in the match up of the choke/barrel contacts or lack thereof, there very well may have been scads of "residual" stress left over from manufacture of the choke itself. A set of circumstances, just waiting for some small "ping" to initiate a crack, (as in a bell cracking).

That is not a "over pressure crack" at all. Maybe an "over hard", (manufacturing defect), and thus very brittle, type crack though. (It very well may have just been dropped and that initiated the crack!)

There is just not enough pressure, especially with a cylinder bore, (no extra restriction there), to crack a choke at the muzzle. If there had been, say from a partial blockage of the muzzle and it did raise the pressure enough to do something like this, the barrel, (carrier), and threads would have been damaged as well.

That would have caused some "plastic" deformation of the much softer barrel steel. But the OP says the threads seem completely intact and usable.

That brings up your question of what plastic deformation is? A metals expert that doesn't know what "elastic" and "plastic" deformation are? Well, just for edification, elastic is stretching or other movement, and then returning to it's previous dimensions. Plastic is movement that does not "go back". It has been stretched, bent or deformed beyond it's elastic limit.

This shows no plastic deformation, meaning it was very, very hard and brittle. I bet it as well as the other chokes would screw right back in.



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