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 Post subject: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:58 pm 
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I thought this was basic information but nevertheless a good article by Tom Roster. I especially found interesting his suggestions on shooting older guns that had not undergone Nitro Proof testing. I will admit to having violated his rule many times, and for many years, with many different guns. I guess someone was looking out for me.

https://shootingsportsman.com/pressure-vs-recoil/




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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:33 pm 
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Roster has no excuse for repeating what is demonstrable incorrect information - that vintage U.S. doubles were not proved FOR Nitro powder loads.

The makers said so

1894 "GUARANTEED FOR NITRO POWDERS"

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It has been well established that the vast majority of “rough forged tubes” used by U.S. shotgun manufacturers were sourced AND PROOF TESTED in Belgium; both damascus and (with the exception of Winchester and Remington) Decarbonized and early fluid steel. The Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) First Obligatory Proof Load for 12g breech plugged tubes intended for “Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns” was 21 grams = 324 grains = 11.8 Drams powder and 32 grams = 1.12 oz. shot

1902 H.H. Kiffe catalog Winchester 1893 Repeating Shotgun
"The barrel of this gun has been proved with 9 1/2 drams of powder, and 2 1/2 ounces of shot."

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The Lefever Arms Co. catalog with price list dated Jan 1 1889 states:
“Barrels imported by us are selected with greatest care, are tested and proved by makers, and bear Government [Belgian] proof marks.”

Parker Brothers 1893 Catalogue
“Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.”

Remington Arms Co. catalogue in October 1894, which introduced the Remington Hammerless Double Barrel Shotgun stated “The Remington Guns, both Hammer and Hammerless, are especially adapted to all nitro powders, and every gun is thoroughly proved, tested and targeted, before leaving the armory.” (Courtesy of David Noreen)

Ithaca advertisements stated that barrels were proved with a “double charge of powder and 1 1/2 times the normal shot load”; or (possibly) 6 1/2 Drams Black Powder with 2 1/4 oz. of shot if the standard load was 1 1/8 oz. shot and 3 1/4 Dram Eq.

And marked guns with this

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Much more information here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFn ... 62Hx4/edit
And documentation that turn-of-the-century Nitro/Smokeless powder loads had pressures very similar, if not greater, than modern loads
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2s ... FU/preview

TO BE CLEAR, as said over and over, only a specialist smith with the interest, equipment (bore scope and wall thickness gauge), and experience can provide advice regarding the safety of ANY vintage shotgun and barrel.

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Last edited by Drew Hause on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:19 pm 
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
Drew Hause wrote:
Roster has no excuse for repeating what is demonstrable incorrect information - that vintage U.S. doubles were not proved for Nitro powder loads.

The makers said so

TO BE CLEAR, as said over and over, only a specialist smith with the interest, equipment (bore scope and wall thickness gauge), and experience can provide advice regarding the safety of ANY vintage shotgun and barrel.


That is in fact inexcusable and simply unprofessional reporting by Roster! I think it would help everyone if you would go onto the comment section of the article and take Roster to task for his misinformation. Please do as many readers of SSM would benefit. Thanks for your input here to this article. I am sorry I brought it to light.
:oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:40 pm 
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Absolutely no reason to apologize oyeme, and I appreciate having the opportunity to share the facts - not opinions or mythology

Another specious argument is that vintage guns were never proved WITH Nitro powder

Under the British 1896 Rules of Proof
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCA ... g=PA296&dq
12g 2 1/2” and 2 5/8” chambers (bore .710-.740) for a maximum service load of 3 1/4 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot. (1220 fps)
Definitive Proof – 6 1/2 Drams Proof-House Black Powder with 1 2/3 oz. No. 6 shot = 10,100 psi + 10 - 14%
Supplementary Nitro Proof with 6 1/2 Drams of Curtis & Harvey No. 2 T.S. powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot = 16,400 psi + 10-14%
Curtis & Harvey's No. 2 T.S. (72 gr. = 3 Dr. Eq.) was a fine grain Black Powder somewhat similar but not equivalent to FFFg. The 'T.S.' means Treble Strong and the pressures it produced were similar to Bulk Smokeless powders of that period; "E.C." and "Schultze".

This pressure curve is from "Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics" by Wallace H Coxe, 1931. NOTE: "All powders loaded to develop the same energy" (ie. the area underneath each curve)
With the exception of Ballistite, a Dense Smokeless powder, the pressure curves of FFFg, Schultz and DuPont Bulk, and DuPont Oval (a progressive burning powder used for Western's Super-X line) are very similar.

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Another from 1933 with DuPont MX

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This is a Hunter Arms Pressure Curve dated 1929 in the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West http://library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/ ... 49/rec/107
The proof loads used were Black Powder.

A Parker Service and Proof Load table was published in the 1930s and reproduced in the The Parker Story p. 515. 12g 2 3/4” shell Service Pressure is 10,500 psi. Definitive proof used 7.53 Drams Black Powder and 2 oz. shot with a pressure of 15,900 psi. The pressure was no doubt measured using LUP and modern transducer values would be 10-14% higher, or more than 17,500 psi.

LTC Calvin Goddard reported the same numbers in “Army Ordnance”, 1934. He wrote that Parker followed the SAAMI standards of that period: 13,700 psi proof, 9500 psi service for 2 5/8” chamber; 15,900 psi proof, 10,500 psi service for 2 3/4” chamber (by LUP) + 10-14% for modern transducer measurement.

Jack O’Connor wrote in Outdoor Life in 1942 that Lew Smith, President of Ithaca Gun Co. stated the Proof Loads were 17,500 psi.

Pressure is pressure, if with a similar pressure curve.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:38 pm 
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Specious argument #3
"Without having US smokeless [re]proofing or overseas nitro [re]proofing performed, the safest course would be to shoot only blackpowder loads in shotguns more than 100 years old."

Really?
A Winchester Repeating Shotgun Model of 1912 with Winchester Nickel Steel barrel with a reported by Winchester ultimate tensile strength of 100,000 - 107,000 psi with an elastic limit of 81,000 psi?

How about a Remington Hammerless Model of 1894 with Ordnance Steel introduced in 1897?
The 1902 Remington catalog stated that Ordnance Steel tensile strength was 110,000 psi.

Maybe a Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel barreled double?
Lefever Arms Co. was the first U.S. maker to supply Whitworth steel for their Optimus in 1887. Parker used Whitworth for the first AAH Pigeon Gun in 1894 SN 79964 delivered to Capt. Du Bray. Hunter Arms first offered Whitworth on the Monogram, A2, and A3 in 1895.

And BTW it is easy today to find factory 12g Smokeless powder loads that reproduce the pressures of black powder loads.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:49 pm 
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Specious argument #4
"Based on the number of damaged vintage guns and personal injuries that I am aware of that have resulted from using these loads in vintage guns, it is clear that using these smokeless-powder loads is not a foolproof, safe practice in “vintage”-type shotguns..."

Blown-up "modern" K-,P-,B-guns are shown at the bottom here, some with links that one will need to cut and paste
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17546456

MX8

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K80

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The issue is of course the cause of the blow up, which could be an extreme over-pressure reload or an obstruction, having nothing to do with the age of the gun.

A "foolproof" modern Remington Gun Club with a steel head separation. Had the shooter been using a "modern" SA and not noticed that only the head was ejected, the plastic hull would be in the forcing cone or barrel for the next shot

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:17 pm 
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“Recoil is not a function of pressure but of the force caused by the acceleration of a load’s ejecta reacting backward through the weight and design of the shotgun to reach the shooter”

This is bunk too. Recoil is, as he says, a function of the force caused by the acceleration of the ejecta. But that force is a function of pressure. In fact, it is equal to the pressure times the area over which that pressure is applied .. pi*r^2 where r is the radius of the barrell.

“But pressure is not any part of any equation used to calculate and express recoil.”

It can be if you want it to. Simply express recoil as a function of the force applied to the gun (or ejecta) and express that force as a function of pressure (see above).


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:57 pm 
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The only place 'pressure' is EVER applied to gun recoil is the calculation of firearm rearward velocity. That's the only place where it has any bearing due to the 'jet effect' at barrel uncorking.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:25 pm 
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But maximum pressure or peak pressure is a different variable than the time versus pressure curve. So the peak pressure shown in the reloading manuals is not a good indicator of recoil for loads with different powders. Why is that a hard concept to grasp?

Read the Roster article cited above. He has it right about recoil and pressure.


Last edited by Bill M. on Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:53 pm 
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I have no idea why it is so hard to grasp Bill, but people continue to argue the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:09 am 
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OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
The only place 'pressure' is EVER applied to gun recoil is the calculation of firearm rearward velocity. That's the only place where it has any bearing due to the 'jet effect' at barrel uncorking.


Physics is physics. Until someone proves otherwise.

But, as Bill says, peak pressure does not tell the whole story.

The integral of the pressure over the area applied equals the force applied to the gun to make it move rearward. The integral of that force over time is impulse. That impulse is applied to the breech of the gun causing a change in momentum .. recoil.

Most people,don’t speak of it this way, but most people aren’t avid shooters and also engineers who happen to be married to a physicist who is also an avid shooter.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:21 am 
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Managed a B in Physics 101 at Mizzou in 1971, but barely.
I get the relationship concept, but this is my confusion.
A pipe bomb has no recoil, no matter the pressure, until the cap blows off one end (or it disintegrates). How much more does weight and speed of the ejecta, weight of the powder, and the weight of the pipe bomb contribute to recoil than does the pressure generated?
Also relevant to .410 loads and recoil, and what the shooter perceives with an obstructional barrel burst.
If possible, a non-deep thinkin' answer would be great, rather than a complex formula and thanks ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:34 am 
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First, in general terms, I wouldn't shoot any gun over 100 years old without either an expert examination or (much) better yet a Re-Proof, no matter who made it or what the barrels were made of, using nitro, black powder or fairy dust.

A lot can happen in 100 years and Bubba goes back five generations at least. :? How often do you see "Really nice bright barrels, not a bit of rust or pitting and 100 years old.?" That's because Bubba has bought himself an electric hone and removed forty thou of metal.

That was just after he lengthened the 2 1/2" chambers so a 2 3/4" squib would squeeze in, again reducing the wall thickness by "X" right where your face fits.

Second, the one thing I agree with in the article is that if you submit a gun to European CIP Re-Proof and shoot it with the appropriate ammunition, it's a safe as any other gun. Outside of that, well let's say I don't chime with his views.

WW Greener categorised recoil by measuring the acceleration of the gun; from memory he didn't measure pressure, gun weight load or whatever, just how fast Ole Betsey came back. 18 fps was as much as anyone could be expected to stand; anything beyond that was infeasible.

Eugene

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:34 pm 
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Wasn't he talking about Damascus Twist barrels?

Modern commercial shotgun ammunition is maxed out at about 12,000 PSi. Most modern shotgun barrels are actually proof tested at or about 20,000 PSI. And most modern shotgun barrels will approach or exceed 50,000 PSI before they fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:03 pm 
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oyeme wrote:
I thought this was basic information but nevertheless a good article by Tom Roster. I especially found interesting his suggestions on shooting older guns that had not undergone Nitro Proof testing. I will admit to having violated his rule many times, and for many years, with many different guns. I guess someone was looking out for me.

https://shootingsportsman.com/pressure-vs-recoil/


Quote:
One erroneous belief is that by merely shooting smokeless-powder loads that develop chamber pressures no more than 7,000 psi, such loads can be safely shot in all vintage shotguns—Damascus-barreled or otherwise—made when only blackpowder loads existed and/or when smokeless powder was first coming on. As I have stated in the past, this is absolutely unproven and as such remains guesswork.


It is pretty simple advise, but will not be of help to those that think they know better.

When you buy a new, commonly available box of modern shotshells, you have no idea what the peak pressure is, or the pressure curve. It isn't on the box, nor do most shotshell manufacturers publish that information. Just because a gun does not suffer a catastrophic failure with a trigger pull hardly means that it is best practice, or safe practice.

Unlike the pressure in your tires that can be easily checked (or your car tells you what it is), we are stuck with complete ignorance about what the pressure range is actually in a new box of shells, and left with no easy way to find out. On century-old guns, we likely are not the first owner, and have no idea what loads were already run through it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:48 pm 
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Pressure is force. The energy of a projectile at any point in the barrel is a function of weight(mass) & velocity. Usually at max. at the muzzle. What is neglected is usually the rate of acceleration. The argument is your body can't detect time intervals that small. Maybe not but it can surely suffer from the event. I won't say all because there are always exceptions but I know of no formula in dynamics that doesn't have "dt" in it (derivative of time/with respect to time). That is like saying a deer can't feel a bullet traveling at 3000 fps because he can't detect time intervals that short. Maybe not but he likely won't be able to detect anything from then on. Maximum energy is at maximum velocity, all will agree. The sticky part is what happens during acceleration. We have all experienced loads that are easy in the recoil dept. & loads that are not that have close to the same muzzle vel., sometimes called easy shooting loads. The faster a force is applied, the more will be the effect (felt recoil). I have been told that is totally wrong & I am full of beans but I am unconvinced. Imagine traveling in your car at 60 mph & then having to brake to a stop to avoid an accident. Assuming you avoided the accident, you should be o.k. except for your cup of coffee all over the windshield. Now imagine hitting a 4 ft. dia. oak tree!! The energy was the same both times. Forces applied over more time exert less shock & loads that have a more gradual acceleration have less felt recoil!
I know Tom Roster. Never met him in person but have talked to him on the phone a few times & he has worked up loads for me. Two other guys fairly well know in the shotgun sports industry that I have met personally & hunted with are Sherman Bell & Tom Armsbrust. Not that that makes me any kind of authority or that I necessary agree with them all the time but I have learned from them. Most probably know of Sherman's articles in the "Double Gun Journal", titled "Finding Out For Myself. Personally, I am not going to buy a damascus gun because simply, I don't want to go through the associated hassles to determine what is safe to shoot in it. Sherman has spent a lot of money doing just that & I would shoot any of his gums that I saw. Armbrust tested a number of ratty old fluid steel & damascus guns by gradually increasing the loads until failure (as posted elsewhere on here). What happened first was the guns shot loose & got off face. The damascus barrels were failing at about 20,000 psi. & the fluid barrels took a couple hundred more psi. By this time they were in very bad shape. Barrel obstructions are said to be the leading cause of blow ups.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:19 pm 
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geometric wrote:
Pressure is force.

-> Force per unit area actually .. psi .. pounds (force) per square inch (area) .. but for this conversation where the area is fixed, close enough.

The energy of a projectile at any point in the barrel is a function of weight(mass) & velocity.

-> correct.. mv^2

Usually at max. at the muzzle.

-> unless the barrell is really long .. like 100 feet .. :)

What is neglected is usually the rate of acceleration.

-> f=ma .. a=f/m .. acceleration is proportional to the force applied .. the force applied is proportional to the pressure .. force per unit area .. see above.

The argument is your body can't detect time intervals that small.

-> mine can .. slow acceleration is more of a push .. fast acceleration is more of a punch .. okay analogy?


Maximum energy is at maximum velocity, all will agree.

-> yep.

The sticky part is what happens during acceleration.

-> not sticky in my book. Science tells us it matters. So does experience with fast burning powders and hard wads vs. slower burning powders and collapsible wads.

We have all experienced loads that are easy in the recoil dept. & loads that are not that have close to the same muzzle vel., sometimes called easy shooting loads. The faster a force is applied, the more will be the effect (felt recoil).

-> exactly.

I have been told that is totally wrong & I am full of beans but I am unconvinced.

-> my wife the physicist and avid shooter would not disagree. She loves B&Ps and hates Herters .. and knows the science behind why.

Imagine traveling in your car at 60 mph & then having to brake to a stop to avoid an accident. Assuming you avoided the accident, you should be o.k. except for your cup of coffee all over the windshield. Now imagine hitting a 4 ft. dia. oak tree!! The energy was the same both times. Forces applied over more time exert less shock & loads that have a more gradual acceleration have less felt recoil!

-> good analogy!



An excellent post!


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:22 pm 
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Drew Hause wrote:
Managed a B in Physics 101 at Mizzou in 1971, but barely.
I get the relationship concept, but this is my confusion.
A pipe bomb has no recoil, no matter the pressure, until the cap blows off one end (or it disintegrates). How much more does weight and speed of the ejecta, weight of the powder, and the weight of the pipe bomb contribute to recoil than does the pressure generated?
Also relevant to .410 loads and recoil, and what the shooter perceives with an obstructional barrel burst.
If possible, a non-deep thinkin' answer would be great, rather than a complex formula and thanks ;)


While the pipe bomb is intact, the force applied by the pressure at one end cancels the force applied by the pressure at the other end.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:15 pm 
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Thank you Denver911, You are the first person that has agreed with me on this! Not totally but close enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressure VS Recoil-A Primer By Tom Roster
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:14 pm 
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moocher wrote:
Modern commercial shotgun ammunition is maxed out at about 12,000 PSi. Most modern shotgun barrels are actually proof tested at or about 20,000 PSI.


3 inch .410 loads have had 13,500 psi MAP for as long as I can remember: 3.5 inch 12 gauge is 14,500 PSI. That is average max, where one shell can dramatically exceed those levels. Which shell or shells they are, no one knows.



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