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 Post subject: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:32 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:47 am
Posts: 26
Another comparison.. This is after all just a shotgun forum, right?

Looking to add another gun to the stable, this will be an O/U 20g field gun. I've narrowed it down to the below list, looking for best QUALITY per DOLLAR. Much time has been spent researching the best quality per dollar guns in the 1-2k range. What's your pick from this list? Note, I know you may think that new turkish guns should be mentioned, or some other gun, but this is my list, so stick to it. I should also note, this isn't my first gun, or second, I own a few doubles, one of them already on the list in a different configuration.

- Beretta Bl-3 / Bl-4 (depending on condition and price could go 3 or 4)
- Beretta 686 Onyx
- Miroku / Charles Daly (several models)
- Nikko 5000/5100/5200/Shadow
- Miida
- Winchester 101 / 101 Pigeon (sub 2k)
- Ruger Red Label
- Weatherby Orion (SKB)
- Weatherby Olympian
- Weatherby Regency

Additional note: You may notice much of the list is essentially the same gun (101,miroku,nikko) but in different grades/wood/engraving. I have a spot for that era Japanese doubles, I think they are the epitome of bang for your buck doubles. But I'd like to see what you think as well. Citori's are intentionally off the list. It just seems that for what you pay for an older Japanese Citori, you can buy a much higher grade 101 or Nikko.

I've noticed the wood on the Mirokus/Nikkos are usually subpair to the pigeons, but the pigeons are intentionally higher grade, and higher priced. Is the wood worth it? Hmm. The coin finished 101's are truly my favorite, but they are usually a tad bit above budget. Worth it?

Red labels also catch my fancy for their price. I would stick with a blued action model, and hopefully english stocked. I've heard both bad and good on these guys. Are they comparable to a same priced Miroku?

The beretta Bl's again, catch my fancy. But again, the wood seems to be comparable to the junk lot at Lowes. I've seen a few with nice wood, but they are hard to come by. A nice little BL-4 20 gauge seems like it would be a pleasure to tote around the woods.

I don't know much about the Weatherby Regencys, they look like very nice guns for the money, sideplated, nicely engraved, nice wood. But I've not heard much on their reputation.

Again, I'm not asking for the BEST gun all around, because that means the most expensive generally. If money was no option i would buy a Presentation Grade 101. I want to know what YOU think is the best bang for your buck. That could mean the cheapest gun on the list, which is probably the Orion @ 700-900. That could be the best money spent, but not the best gun compared side by side with another. Quality per dollar. Quality per dollar.




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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:39 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5859
101


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:33 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:36 pm
Posts: 1635
Location: Northeast Ohio
Value per cost, and even more starkly, feel are going to vary noticeably within your list. But obviously, you've already considered that in compiling it, and you could live with any of them. From reading your post, it seems cost and value are high priorities in making your decision.

That said, we're all different, but for me it would be the 686 in field version. I've owned, still own, shopped for, and have spent considerable amount of time with every gun on your list. Close friends have owned some of them too, whereby I've used theirs and become additionally familiar.

The 686 feels the best in my hands. Noticeably so. Parts and service are very easily available. The design is current, simple, proven, and dead nuts reliable. The cost is not significantly different enough than the others to make a difference to me...so no brainer there (for me), to you, the "bang for buck" might make a difference. Resale value is good and sales easy with the Beretta to boot.

I always make handling, balance and feel my number one priority. Only you know what those elements mean to you in choosing.

Availability of some parts is getting to be an issue on the older BL series, Miroku, Nikko and even the 101. That would concern me some. Not so on the SKB (especially the later iterations).

It's funny, I'm casually shopping for a used 20 ga. O/U too, and I too considered and viewed every gun on your list recently. But I'm old, know what I want, and have made up my mind on the Beretta. It simply feels the best to ME by a long shot, so it was an easy decision.

There is not a loser on your list. I'd be glad to own and shoot any of them. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:12 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1094
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
Of the ones on your list I would go 101 or the Beretta 686. I like the Daly/Miroku guns but if it breaks a hammer spring, you could be without it for awhile.

While you intentionally left off the Citori, I think a type II or III Citori made 1978 and later would be your best buy. Parts are readily available and they are solid. There should be plenty available in your price range. If you are lucky, you might be able to find a nice Superposed in that price range. My brother in law found an early 60s 20 ga Lightning IC/M in very good condition for just under $2K.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:23 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2495
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
BL-3


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:29 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1142
101


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 3436
Location: New England
.

Having owned/shot/hunted with about half your listing, I vote for the 686 Onyx.

I found it to be the most versatile, best-handling gun of the ones I had.

Being a rough/field hunter, the lighter weight of the Onyx shines for me (YMMV, of course)

.
.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:13 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Michigan
Winchester 101
Weatherby Orion (SKB)


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:30 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:31 pm
Posts: 17880
Location: Kearney NE
Me, the old 101 or Niko. Next the 686, then Miroku, with the SKB Weatherby close behind.
Anything but the Red Label.
From what I’ve seen the Nikos always had nicer wood for the money than the 101s. Don’t pass on a Classic Doubles if one comes your way, same gun as Winchester and Niko.
Since most all these will be used guns value per dollar is highly subjective depending on price.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:57 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22690
Which one FITS you the best?
And I would drop the Ruger like a hot potato from your list.

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:59 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1142
the red labels take a lot of hit or miss criticism.
my only issue with them was they were too light to be an all around shotgun.
I had one for several years and used it to hunt ducks as well as the winter time ATA events I attended.
[sometimes on the same day]
the only reason I got rid of it was I was constantly reminding myself it was probably a bit too costly to be using as a pry bar to be moving ice chunks out of the duck hole I was making at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:14 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:47 am
Posts: 26
Thanks guys for the good comments so far!

As far as fit goes, I'm very much the size and weight of the average guy most gun companies build there guns to fit. Fortunately. I know the dimensions I prefer, and will select accordingly. Unfortunately, you can't shoulder every gun you are interested in over the internet, sometimes its a gamble, but I know enough about guns and dimensions I like to get me in the ball park.


Just for other 101 fans, there is a great deal on a 101 right now, too bad its a 12g! and 14" LOP. (by the way, I typically LOVE short LOP guns they usually = less money. I don't mind adding a little grind to fit spacer)

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns- ... =101553674


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:40 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:03 pm
Posts: 4162
Location: Mid-Missouri
FWIW, I'm a bottom feeder and have tried a bunch of different guns looking for that perfect $700-$800 over/under. (I note there's no SKB variations on your list). I finally decided that the best buy was a Browning CXS or a Beretta 686. Spend a few hundred dollars more and get something with interchangeable chokes. The bottom feeder guns really aren't a bargain compared to the quality affordable guns being produced today.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:41 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:47 am
Posts: 26
Bladeswitcher wrote:
FWIW, I'm a bottom feeder and have tried a bunch of different guns looking for that perfect $700-$800 over/under. (I note there's no SKB variations on your list). I finally decided that the best buy was a Browning CXS or a Beretta 686. Spend a few hundred dollars more and get something with interchangeable chokes. The bottom feeder guns really aren't a bargain compared to the quality affordable guns being produced today.


First. There is a SKB gun on the list - the weatherby orion
Second. These guns listed aren't bottom feeder guns. The dollar range I'm looking at is between 1,000 to 2,000.
Third. I prefer fixed choke guns.

Lastly, I think alot of the so-called "affordable quality" new guns being produced today lack quality. The new 686 Silver Pigeon 1's look like their wood came from the scrap bin at Home Depot. The engraving and checkering look just as bad.

I'm not saying the 686's aren't good guns mechanically. That's why the onyx is on my list. I think those older onyx's are much better value for money.

Same goes with the browning. I think they're great guns mechanically, but I think the new ones look like sh*t. Just off my list is an older Citori, but it got bumped off just becasue I already have essentially 3 versions of the same gun on the list already.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:47 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:03 pm
Posts: 4162
Location: Mid-Missouri
PADouble2 wrote:

First. There is a SKB gun on the list - the weatherby orion
Second. These guns listed aren't bottom feeder guns. The dollar range I'm looking at is between 1,000 to 2,000. .


If you’re paying that kind of money for those guns, you’re probably shopping at some boutique seller with leather chairs and wood paneling on the walls.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:47 am
Posts: 26
Bladeswitcher wrote:
PADouble2 wrote:

First. There is a SKB gun on the list - the weatherby orion
Second. These guns listed aren't bottom feeder guns. The dollar range I'm looking at is between 1,000 to 2,000. .


If you’re paying that kind of money for those guns, you’re probably shopping at some boutique seller with leather chairs and wood paneling on the walls.



As a matter of fact my computer chair is leather! But my walls are just dry walled. Damn.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:00 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1142
well,,, for about 1-2K you could take care of that.... LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:31 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:23 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Colorado
Picked up this little beauty last summer and have about 400 rounds down it. As solid a shotgun as you'll ever find. Don't know why anyone would buy a Turkish shotgun when these can be had at reasonable prices. (My apologies to the Turkish shotgun lovers).
https://www.gunauction.com/buy/17083925


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:22 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 pm
Posts: 189
I have always favored Berettas over any other O/U in that price range. I have four 686s. But, I also have three Citoris and other 0/Us. If you go with Beretta, the Onyx would be a better choice over the BL series. The 686 guns are a little better mechanically than the BL series and parts would be more readily available. However, both series are great guns. I have an Onyx in 20 gauge and it is my go to gun for upland birds.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets Hear It
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:38 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:31 pm
Posts: 2433
Beretta 686 Onyx - still in production. The other on the list are not. Beretta has many variants of the 686/687 gun and they share the same parts.



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