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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:47 pm 
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Haven't visited as many LGSs recently as I was a year ago, but my impression is that while "tactical" stuff is gone, there are still plenty of used 11-48s, model 50s, AL-48s, 1100s, 1187s, and similar around.




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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:57 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Hunting, as well as sport shooting numbers are going the wrong way.....

People panic buying guns, most of which will never see more than a few rounds if any through them, are what’s inflating the ‘gun ownership’ numbers.


Pretty much spot on. There is a huge amount of first time gun buyers this year. A quick look around at things like Wuhan/Covid-19, riots, defund the police are main contributors. Most of these first time gun buyers have no desire to hunt. It remains to be seen if any decide to take up some form of hunting in the future. I doubt it will lead to much though. Most don't know anything about guns or shooting. I know quite a few personally. I also talked to a half dozen while in line at a Cabela's recently. I answered a lot of questions while in line. I told all of them to find friends or family that they trust who are familiar with firearms. I said before you load a single round in any gun see them first or take a class.

Then there are the gun guys sucking up supplies on top of all the new gun buyers. Finding ammo like 9mm and 5.56/.223 is the most scarce. There is some hunting with .223 but, most of that is going to the AR guys. Trying to find AR parts to build one is tough and usually takes some time looking at many places. It's not inexperienced first time gun buyers building AR's for their first gun.

Michigan firearm deer season has been in decline but, saw a upswing this year. I see a lot of younger girls getting into it which is great for the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:58 pm 
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Hunting is probably about the only way folks are allowed outside in NY with their draconian Covid restrictions.. :wink:

Glad to see young kids getting involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:57 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
I believe they are. The various organizations put on a brave face, and talk about ‘new membership’ numbers, but I believe they’re a bit of an illusion.

Much as I’d really like to believe otherwise.


Sporting clays numbers are up all over the country. SCTP youth events are booming. Just because registered target skeet has declined doesn't mean everything else is down.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
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Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
Some are under the very mistaken assumption that upstate NYers are sheep. The NY Safe Act has like a 5-10% compliance rate. Several upstate NY sheriffs have told King Cuomo that they will not enforce his limits on the # of people that can be in someone's house this Thanksgiving. The more stupid laws/executive orders that are passed/issued here the more laws/orders are ignored here. There are lots of freedom loving people in NY but we could use more or maybe lose NYC. I'm hoping the rising ocean levels we hear are coming will take care of the place.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5859
drawdc wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
I believe they are. The various organizations put on a brave face, and talk about ‘new membership’ numbers, but I believe they’re a bit of an illusion.

Much as I’d really like to believe otherwise.


Sporting clays numbers are up all over the country. SCTP youth events are booming. Just because registered target skeet has declined doesn't mean everything else is down.


I wasn’t talking about registered skeet. And yes, SCTP numbers are looking good (I’m a coach), they represent and incredibly small fraction of organize shooters in ANY discipline, shotgun or not.

Clays, across the board, are static, to dropping. There are regional hotspots around the country, but us tiny little group who shoot enthusiastically, are not seeing the big picture. We’re seeing what we want to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:45 am 
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Rooster booster wrote:
drawdc wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
I believe they are. The various organizations put on a brave face, and talk about ‘new membership’ numbers, but I believe they’re a bit of an illusion.

Much as I’d really like to believe otherwise.


Sporting clays numbers are up all over the country. SCTP youth events are booming. Just because registered target skeet has declined doesn't mean everything else is down.


I wasn’t talking about registered skeet. And yes, SCTP numbers are looking good (I’m a coach), they represent and incredibly small fraction of organize shooters in ANY discipline, shotgun or not.

Clays, across the board, are static, to dropping. There are regional hotspots around the country, but us tiny little group who shoot enthusiastically, are not seeing the big picture. We’re seeing what we want to see.


The problem with these kinds of discussions is it is almost impossible to get actual statistics. We can track gun sales, hunting licenses, and registered target events but we have no facts for more casual shooting of clay targets.

We have kids shooting teams that simply did not exist 40 years ago. The number of colleges with shotgun teams has increased tremendously in the same time period. I agree hunting is down, but I feel it has been replaced by enthusiastic clay target shooters.

You see the world from one point of view. I see another. Blanket statements like "sport shooting is going the wrong way" are hard to back up. I'll tell the 300 kids at the next SCTP event I am working that Rooster Booster says they are in a dying sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5859
drawdc wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
drawdc wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
I believe they are. The various organizations put on a brave face, and talk about ‘new membership’ numbers, but I believe they’re a bit of an illusion.

Much as I’d really like to believe otherwise.


Sporting clays numbers are up all over the country. SCTP youth events are booming. Just because registered target skeet has declined doesn't mean everything else is down.


I wasn’t talking about registered skeet. And yes, SCTP numbers are looking good (I’m a coach), they represent and incredibly small fraction of organize shooters in ANY discipline, shotgun or not.

Clays, across the board, are static, to dropping. There are regional hotspots around t I he country, but us tiny little group who shoot enthusiastically, are not seeing the big picture. We’re seeing what we want to see.


The problem with these kinds of discussions is it is almost impossible to get actual statistics. We can track gun sales, hunting licenses, and registered target events but we have no facts for more casual shooting of clay targets.

We have kids shooting teams that simply did not exist 40 years ago. The number of colleges with shotgun teams has increased tremendously in the same time period. I agree hunting is down, but I feel it has been replaced by enthusiastic clay target shooters.

You see the world from one point of view. I see another. Blanket statements like "sport shooting is going the wrong way" are hard to back up. I'll tell the 300 kids at the next SCTP event I am working that Rooster Booster says they are in a dying sport.


The problem with these types of discussions is they’re not face to face, and some can’t or won’t comprehend well. Go back and read the thread......in it I make several statements. One is I Hope I’m wrong. Another is, I’m an SCTP coach.

So try and let your ego sit behind you on your emotional bus, just once. I’ve been involved in the shooting sports most of my life, a good chunk of it professionally, these later (retired years) as a volunteer with various youth shooters. So don’t be an a$$.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:52 am 
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 4:08 pm
Posts: 2596
So try and let your ego sit behind you on your emotional bus, just once. I’ve been involved in the shooting sports most of my life, a good chunk of it professionally, these later (retired years) as a volunteer with various youth shooters. So don’t be an a$$.[/quote]

What does my ego have to do with it? We have different opinions. Because I disagree with you, I am being an A$$? You aren't the only person on the forum with professional experience. As the commercials say, past experience doesn't guarantee future results.

I usually agree with you. This time I don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5859
No, you’re being an a$$ by turning to sarcasm after your ego outran your common sense. I’m referring to your last sentence of your previous post.

This isn’t about right or wrong, as no one knows for certain, and I actually said as much about my comments. But across the board, shooting and hunting is down. That is verifiable by current data. Us ‘wishing’ it away, or using isolated and or personal experiences doesn’t change the realities.

No one wishes that wasn’t the case more than me. Possibly the most enjoyable part of my entire shooting, competing, hunting life, has been working with new shooters and hunters. But I still can separate emotion from fact, and read the writing on the wall.


Last edited by Rooster booster on Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:09 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
DEG wrote:
It's not a logical assumption that people buy guns because they are into shooting. A large majority (67%) buy guns for personal protection and have no interest in hunting or recreational shooting.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/22/key-takeaways-on-americans-views-of-guns-and-gun-ownership/

There are many many reasons for declines in hunters and recreational shooters.


This is really interesting because of the differences depending on what part of the world we live in. For example, in Canada I’d estimate that 0% (zero percent) of gun buyers buy them for personal protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4964
It may be small, but it cannot be zero percent unless Canada has no crime whatsoever. Does it?

The main increase in shooting sports that I see in the USA is inner city homicide but I doubt many of those weapons are recorded on 4473 forms. The number of trophy bucks taken in the nearest urban jungle to me surpassed its 2019 total a month or two ago.

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The root(s) of all evil:
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-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:26 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
No, you’re being an a$$ by turning to sarcasm after your ego outran your common sense. I’m referring to your last sentence of your previous post.

This isn’t about right or wrong, as no one knows for certain, and I actually said as much about my comments. But across the board, shooting and hunting is down. That is verifiable by current data. Us ‘wishing’ it away, or using isolated and or personal experiences doesn’t change the realities.

No one wishes that wasn’t the case more than me. Possibly the most enjoyable part of my entire shooting, competing, hunting life, has been working with new shooters and hunters. But I still can separate emotion from fact, and read the writing on the wall.


Either no one knows for certain, or it can be verified. I don't believe you can verify conclusively all clay target participation and therefore it is an opinion.

I'll stop now. Like I said, I agree with you most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5859
I’ll do the same, and also agree with you often. Different conversation in person I’d guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:09 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Zbigniew wrote:
It may be small, but it cannot be zero percent unless Canada has no crime whatsoever. Does it?

The main increase in shooting sports that I see in the USA is inner city homicide but I doubt many of those weapons are recorded on 4473 forms. The number of trophy bucks taken in the nearest urban jungle to me surpassed its 2019 total a month or two ago.


Ha . . well we do have our share of crime for sure . . but the percentage of gun buyers that buy them for personal self protection or protection from crime is close to 0% I’m sure. It’s a historical and cultural thing and that’s just how that has evolved in Canada.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
Posts: 6412
Location: Mascoutah IL
The US Fish and Wildlife Service page below has the hunting license numbers by year for each state going back the late 1950s.

https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm

Looks like sales of hunting licenses have steadily increased for about the last 60 years. The increase from year to year wasn't huge and may have coincided with population increases.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2495
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
"Hunting"....got a boost with the archery deer boom along with wide NWTF turkey introductions....plus, the concept of Leasing and the hunting = competition aspect of Life entered the equation.

What is missing, hereabouts, is seeing orange caps walking a field for rabbits as one drives along the roads or passing a young boy or girl with a mess of squirrels.
Add in the decline of birddogs in backyards and a profound decrease in family deer gun participation ....then, hunting's decline looks different than any sales figure or marketing strategy.
You have to look deeper than those sales figures to actually see many of the declines afield today, declines which are truly steeper than a horse's face.

Gun sales increase as people become afraid, as they work to fit in and as they discover how cheaply one can board that buy train.
Good and bad to that, I reckon.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:35 am 
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A lot of factors have contributed to more guns, fewer hunters.

First and foremost is that hunting requires access to rural farmland or timber, and the relative price of farmland and timber over the last fifty years has meant a few larger corporate farms and more smaller hobby farms, and the people that farmed as a lifestyle more than a business or hobby are almost all in the graveyards.

Commercial farms aren’t going to allow hunting, or picking mushrooms or blackberries. Small hobby farmers are going to reserve those rights for themselves. And even a lot of multigenerational land owners have discovered that people will pay for hunting rights.

When I’m gone no matter how much I threaten my kids I’ll come back and haunt them, I suspect no hunting signs will be posted before my funeral.

So that leaves public lands and hunting on a buddy’s place and lease hunting as the major means the average person can hunt, today.

The second reason is all these cussed cell phones and lack of traditional morals have turned the entire rural population into a cell phone Judas. People think nothing of calling the law at the sight or sound of somebody with a gun. Except for deer season, when the sound of gunshots is expected, shooting a gun today in a rural area usually means a visit from sheriff’s deputies.

Another reason is prosperity and cheap meat in the grocery stores. My wife just bought three delicious young turkeys for less than the cost of a turkey tag and a box of shells, and they will be absolutely prime, grain fed, good, tasty and tender. The people that claim to prefer wild game, I suspect didn’t have to eat old Holstein cows growing up. And if you took a good fat hog to the local slaughterhouse to butcher, they’d never ask “Would you like half venison in your hog and grind it all up into deer sausage?”

And, more people are moving to urban areas, and kids today have other interests than hunting, and the sport seems on the decline.

As to why there are more guns, it’s because people today are buying people shooters they will never shoot any people with. And people that love guns, accumulate guns as a hobby.

Other than a policeman, I think I was fully grown and in law school in Kansas City when I met somebody that said here, look at my Colt 1911. I was in my mid thirties when I saw my first AR-15. Then came along concealed carry permits and cheap Armalite rifles and before long I had those myself.

And they are range toys. I go to my shooter’s club and shoot my people shooters. They aren’t as rewarding for me to shoot, as my Elmer Fudd guns.

I’ve read that a very small percentage of gun owners, own most of the guns. I’ve bought dozens and dozens of Elmer Fudd guns, just because I like guns. But I seldom hunt with them. When I do I take an Ithaca Model 37 for birds, or my Ruger Number 1 for deer.

My father owned 320 acres of land, and one single shot .22 and one Browning Sweet 16.

He hunted quail every day during the fall and had more fun buying his shells a box or two at a time than I ever possibly could have.

Hunters regarded their guns as tools to hunt.

We hunt for more guns to fill our gun safes.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:22 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
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SuperXOne wrote:
A lot of factors have contributed to more guns, fewer hunters.

First and foremost is that hunting requires access to rural farmland or timber, and the relative price of farmland and timber over the last fifty years has meant a few larger corporate farms and more smaller hobby farms, and the people that farmed as a lifestyle more than a business or hobby are almost all in the graveyards.

Commercial farms aren’t going to allow hunting, or picking mushrooms or blackberries. Small hobby farmers are going to reserve those rights for themselves. And even a lot of multigenerational land owners have discovered that people will pay for hunting rights.

When I’m gone no matter how much I threaten my kids I’ll come back and haunt them, I suspect no hunting signs will be posted before my funeral.

So that leaves public lands and hunting on a buddy’s place and lease hunting as the major means the average person can hunt, today.

The second reason is all these cussed cell phones and lack of traditional morals have turned the entire rural population into a cell phone Judas. People think nothing of calling the law at the sight or sound of somebody with a gun. Except for deer season, when the sound of gunshots is expected, shooting a gun today in a rural area usually means a visit from sheriff’s deputies.

Another reason is prosperity and cheap meat in the grocery stores. My wife just bought three delicious young turkeys for less than the cost of a turkey tag and a box of shells, and they will be absolutely prime, grain fed, good, tasty and tender. The people that claim to prefer wild game, I suspect didn’t have to eat old Holstein cows growing up. And if you took a good fat hog to the local slaughterhouse to butcher, they’d never ask “Would you like half venison in your hog and grind it all up into deer sausage?”

And, more people are moving to urban areas, and kids today have other interests than hunting, and the sport seems on the decline.

As to why there are more guns, it’s because people today are buying people shooters they will never shoot any people with. And people that love guns, accumulate guns as a hobby.

Other than a policeman, I think I was fully grown and in law school in Kansas City when I met somebody that said here, look at my Colt 1911. I was in my mid thirties when I saw my first AR-15. Then came along concealed carry permits and cheap Armalite rifles and before long I had those myself.

And they are range toys. I go to my shooter’s club and shoot my people shooters. They aren’t as rewarding for me to shoot, as my Elmer Fudd guns.

I’ve read that a very small percentage of gun owners, own most of the guns. I’ve bought dozens and dozens of Elmer Fudd guns, just because I like guns. But I seldom hunt with them. When I do I take an Ithaca Model 37 for birds, or my Ruger Number 1 for deer.

My father owned 320 acres of land, and one single shot .22 and one Browning Sweet 16.

He hunted quail every day during the fall and had more fun buying his shells a box or two at a time than I ever possibly could have.

Hunters regarded their guns as tools to hunt.

We hunt for more guns to fill our gun safes.


Agree with a great deal of the above. I know where I grew up in LA ( Lower Alabama ) in the late 50`s through the 60`s , not only have there been societal changes but land use change has been stunningly profound. I grew up hunting quail and dove on my grandfather`s 220 acre farm planted in corn and with branches of streams and hedge rows between fields. Unfortunately, that land passed out of the family ( broke my father`s heart) and now what`s not totally grown up (we used to control burn ) is converted to polo fields.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun sales continue to increase, hunter numbers decline..
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
Posts: 4964
SuperXOne wrote:
A lot of factors have contributed to more guns, fewer hunters.


We hunt for more guns to fill our gun safes.


Very good, SX1. Very good.



_________________
The root(s) of all evil:
-Political Correctness
-Insurance
-Securitization
Take your pick.

Always make an even number of mistakes. One may cancel out another.

"People who enjoy meetings should not be in charge of anything." --Thomas Sowell


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