ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:56 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:10 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 27191
Location: Plainfield, IL
Dward wrote:
I've gone to your referenced site and I'm having difficulty determining the public lies you are referring to. Is there any possibility you may elaborate on the topic?


You can e-mail me if you wish.



_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:10 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 29322
Location: Missouri
RandyWakeman wrote:
SuperXOne wrote:
Ithaca is selling as many Featherlights as they can make for $1,199 and up.

https://ithacagun.com/product/model-37-featherlight/



Except that they aren't. In 2018, the latest available ATF report, Ithaca made a grand total of 584 shotguns.

Henry made 14,439 shotguns.

Savage made 15,265 shotguns . . . all slug guns.

Mossberg made 249,183 shotguns.


Thanks Randy, for those numbers.

Please try finding any Ithaca Model 37’s in stock today, in February 2021, because I can’t.

https://ithacagun.com/product/model-37-featherlight/

And, that’s in spite of Ithaca raising the base price to $1,199.

I’d guess they are making them as fast as they can now.

By the way, what were the 2018 Remington shotgun numbers, likely mostly the 870 Express.

If it goes bang it sells today, but it’s hard to say how long that lasts.


And, do you know what became of the H&R 1971 and Parker trade names?

_________________
I have never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as a reason for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by SuperXOne on Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:12 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 27191
Location: Plainfield, IL
Zbigniew wrote:
'anything that 'perishes' or wears out with use


"With use" is the operative phrase.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:49 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:52 pm
Posts: 5435
Location: Miami Florida and The Republic of Panama
I wonder if Remington has a large stockpile of finished parts they can just assemble
into complete firearms on hand?
Maybe they don't need to forge or machine or mill anything for sometime to come.
Kind of like Winchester and the M12 after 1964.

_________________
Impeesh Fauty Sicks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:05 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 29322
Location: Missouri
Jaspo01 wrote:
I wonder if Remington has a large stockpile of finished parts they can just assemble
into complete firearms on hand?
Maybe they don't need to forge or machine or mill anything for sometime to come.
Kind of like Winchester and the M12 after 1964.


A fascinating 30 minute infomercial from 1969 from Remington.

ONE AT A TIME



Can you imagine how much more automated the Ilion factory is today?

They’ll have some spare inventory of parts, maybe a few days?

_________________
I have never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as a reason for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:19 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:00 pm
Posts: 559
RandyWakeman wrote:
Dward wrote:
I've gone to your referenced site and I'm having difficulty determining the public lies you are referring to. Is there any possibility you may elaborate on the topic?


You can e-mail me if you wish.


Your position on this matter was quite public so I think a private exchange may be of disservice to all who are following this thread. Since many readers here value your opinion, can you please provide details about the public lies relating to the new owners of Remington that you have referred to?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:32 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:47 pm
Posts: 466
Location: NW IL
SuperXOne wrote:
Jaspo01 wrote:
I wonder if Remington has a large stockpile of finished parts they can just assemble
into complete firearms on hand?
Maybe they don't need to forge or machine or mill anything for sometime to come.
Kind of like Winchester and the M12 after 1964.


A fascinating 30 minute infomercial from 1969 from Remington.

ONE AT A TIME



Can you imagine how much more automated the Ilion factory is today?

They’ll have some spare inventory of parts, maybe a few days?


I enjoyed that very much. Thanks for posting it.

_________________
Hunters don't have to make excuses for shooting at birds that are too close.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:54 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 27191
Location: Plainfield, IL
Dward wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Dward wrote:
I've gone to your referenced site and I'm having difficulty determining the public lies you are referring to. Is there any possibility you may elaborate on the topic?


You can e-mail me if you wish.


Your position on this matter was quite public so I think a private exchange may be of disservice to all who are following this thread.


Anyone can e-mail me if they are interested. As far as your rumor, and others, no one will have to wait long.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4550
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Cool old video, Noweil! Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:30 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:00 pm
Posts: 559
RandyWakeman wrote:
Dward wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Dward wrote:
I've gone to your referenced site and I'm having difficulty determining the public lies you are referring to. Is there any possibility you may elaborate on the topic?


You can e-mail me if you wish.


Your position on this matter was quite public so I think a private exchange may be of disservice to all who are following this thread.


Anyone can e-mail me if they are interested. As far as your rumor, and others, no one will have to wait long.


This is a public forum that you have participated in yet now you require email for an answer? Why not just tell everyone what you meant when you said "multiple public lies" in response to a question about your statement that the company was "befuddled" and "smarmy". We would all like to know what your thoughts are.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:33 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 29322
Location: Missouri
For grins sometime take a very early 870 Wingmaster all apart and at the same time a late model 870 870 Remington Express, and see how many parts interchange.

I think all the critical parts that make one go bang will, I’ve not done it in years.

The new owners of Remington have a problem.

They do own the right to restart the machines that manufacture the best selling shotgun in history, but for 70 years now Remington has no doubt figured out to the last fraction of a penny how to efficiently make an 870.

If I were them, I’d start putting the shiniest finish I could on one, the best ever.

I’d leave the cheap pump market to Mossberg and sell nothing but Wingmasters.

Then I’d gussy up the 1100 Competition models, and go from there.

_________________
I have never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as a reason for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:53 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 27191
Location: Plainfield, IL
Dward wrote:
Not trying to belabor or antagonize,


How would it sound if you were? :roll:

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:30 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:00 pm
Posts: 559
RandyWakeman wrote:
Dward wrote:
Not trying to belabor or antagonize,


How would it sound if you were? :roll:


Your statement is a deflection. The question stands.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
Posts: 3086
SuperXOne wrote:
For grins sometime take a very early 870 Wingmaster all apart and at the same time a late model 870 870 Remington Express, and see how many parts interchange.

I think all the critical parts that make one go bang will, I’ve not done it in years.

The new owners of Remington have a problem.

They do own the right to restart the machines that manufacture the best selling shotgun in history, but for 70 years now Remington has no doubt figured out to the last fraction of a penny how to efficiently make an 870.

If I were them, I’d start putting the shiniest finish I could on one, the best ever.

I’d leave the cheap pump market to Mossberg and sell nothing but Wingmasters.

Then I’d gussy up the 1100 Competition models, and go from there.


The Wingmaster idea is not a bad one. The main deal with that, though, is higher quality equals cost to the consumer. The Express was sold as essentially a lesser, bargain basement alternative to the Wingmaster, both carrying the " 870 " model number. They sold a ton. Unfortunately, I do think there were more than a few folks who, unrealistically IMHO, expected Wingmaster quality at a comparatively dirt cheap, Walmart price.

The biggest challenge may well be to put out an undeniably quality gun but at a price point that`s saleable. Somehow they`ll have to do that. Subpar quality right out of the gate is NOT an option IMO.

_________________
Fabarm L4S Initial Hunter
Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:05 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 29322
Location: Missouri
Tidefanatic wrote:
SuperXOne wrote:
For grins sometime take a very early 870 Wingmaster all apart and at the same time a late model 870 870 Remington Express, and see how many parts interchange.

I think all the critical parts that make one go bang will, I’ve not done it in years.

The new owners of Remington have a problem.

They do own the right to restart the machines that manufacture the best selling shotgun in history, but for 70 years now Remington has no doubt figured out to the last fraction of a penny how to efficiently make an 870.

If I were them, I’d start putting the shiniest finish I could on one, the best ever.

I’d leave the cheap pump market to Mossberg and sell nothing but Wingmasters.

Then I’d gussy up the 1100 Competition models, and go from there.


The Wingmaster idea is not a bad one. The main deal with that, though, is higher quality equals cost to the consumer. The Express was sold as essentially a lesser, bargain basement alternative to the Wingmaster, both carrying the " 870 " model number. They sold a ton. Unfortunately, I do think there were more than a few folks who, unrealistically IMHO, expected Wingmaster quality at a comparatively dirt cheap, Walmart price.

The biggest challenge may well be to put out an undeniably quality gun but at a price point that`s saleable. Somehow they`ll have to do that. Subpar quality right out of the gate is NOT an option IMO.



One other problem the new owners of Remington have, is no matter how cheaply they made the 870 Express, Mossberg sold fairly shiny Mossberg 500s cheaper by maybe $20.

I own one Mossberg 500, a .410 pump that works like a hammer (since Rod Gates of Jordan made it feed flawlessly) and while it has a beech stock, overall it’s as pretty as any Mossberg 500 ever made. It cost $200 used, because a brand new one was under $300 new.

And so far Mossberg isn’t in bankruptcy. Most of their production is in Eagle Pass Texas, though. They even make a 9mm plastic wonder nine.

Making cheap pump shotguns is a race to the bottom that Mossberg will always win.

I don’t own one but hear good things about the Versa Max.

I hope Remington can market one shotgun besides the 870 and 1100 (or 11-87) that’s really popular.

And my first really nice deer rifle was a Remington 700BDL.

They finally fixed the trigger so kids like I was then couldn’t turn one into an accident waiting to happen.

Remington’s trouble with the M700 is that my kids and every other kid I know, thinks a new Savage is the finest thing since the original Model 70 pre war cloverleaf tang Winchester.:)

Savage rifles are damned accurate and the owner can change his own barrels.

However it goes I wish Remington the best.

My 1992 Remington 1100 20LT Remchoke is the finest gas operated 20 gauge target gun in the world, because the 20 gauge SX1 never left New Haven, and I’m afraid my Model 51 Ithaca 20 will crack the action slide carrier.:)

_________________
I have never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as a reason for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:37 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4550
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Before I begin I will say that I am very familiar with the 870 Wingmaster as it was my first gun I purchased with help from my dad, new in 1961. All these discussions accept as their premise, that early Wingmaster were a far better quality than the purposely cheapened later 870 Express. That is not a fair comparison or apples to apples. Some even claim that the earlier ones are better than later Wingmaster versions.

I just had a chance to compare an early Wingmaster than my first one, to it. That 1961 gun as I recall was very slick inside and out. However, I just field stripped for cleaning a 1952 Wingmaster and was really shocked to see how many tooling marks were left in that receiver. Maybe that one slipped by, but I wonder if all the glory associated with the Wingmaster of old are warranted. Yes, the 1952 version had real cut checkering on a very plain walnut stock, the bluing is even, but IMO it sure does not display any amount of care in the internals.

Does the 1952 version work fine? Of course it does; it is after all an 870.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:04 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:58 am
Posts: 1957
Location: Omaha, NE
There isn’t much bad to say about Wingmasters. They work. Designed to be cheap to produce, they probably exceeded Remington’s hopes in reliability and longevity.

_________________
The people in government want to disarm you because they intend to do things to you that would get them shot.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:15 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 29322
Location: Missouri
oyeme wrote:
Before I begin I will say that I am very familiar with the 870 Wingmaster as it was my first gun I purchased with help from my dad, new in 1961. All these discussions accept as their premise, that early Wingmaster were a far better quality than the purposely cheapened later 870 Express. That is not a fair comparison or apples to apples. Some even claim that the earlier ones are better than later Wingmaster versions.

I just had a chance to compare an early Wingmaster than my first one, to it. That 1961 gun as I recall was very slick inside and out. However, I just field stripped for cleaning a 1952 Wingmaster and was really shocked to see how many tooling marks were left in that receiver. Maybe that one slipped by, but I wonder if all the glory associated with the Wingmaster of old are warranted. Yes, the 1952 version had real cut checkering on a very plain walnut stock, the bluing is even, but IMO it sure does not display any amount of care in the internals.

Does the 1952 version work fine? Of course it does; it is after all an 870.



I once owned a very early 870 so old the barrel was serial numbered to the receiver, made in the first year or so of production.

Overall the gun was not very shiny, and appeared rust blued. The stock was just gorgeous, well figured walnut, the fore end had multiple rings. Inside there were tool marks but all action surfaces were smooth, and the gun rang like a church bell when closed.

The first few years of the 870, the guns came with a removable steel magazine plug that added weight to the front. I still own one or maybe two of those.

They attached with a screw through a hole in the side of the magazine tube, not present on newer ones. The old style split O ring that expands to retain the magazine spring I think will fit any 870, but the last production Express I saw used a very clever green plastic retainer, instead. I still have a plastic Remington magazine plug or two in my stuff, too.

I took that 1950 or 51 870 and a 2005 870 Express and I remember just nearly every part, all of them down to stocks, fore ends, bolts, internal parts to the bolt, the whole sheebang, would interchange except for something about the magazine plugs, I forget now what.

An 870 cannot be made cheaper than the last ones.

But every way to make one shiner has already been done, too.

_________________
I have never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as a reason for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:43 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 12169
Location: Kansas
Why in the world would you start a new company making a gun that had no patent protection whatsoever with low margins in a high labor cost, high tax state especially when the used market is flooded with the same gun? I’m a former business man and I would hate to try to sell this to my banker with a straight face

_________________
"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington rumor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:07 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
Posts: 3086
casonet wrote:
Why in the world would you start a new company making a gun that had no patent protection whatsoever with low margins in a high labor cost, high tax state especially when the used market is flooded with the same gun? I’m a former business man and I would hate to try to sell this to my banker with a straight face


An interesting question for one Richmond Italia.



_________________
Fabarm L4S Initial Hunter
Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: bassycrtns01, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], md2020, oldshotty, Road Man, skeetsit, Steeler [Crawler], strato-caster, T-Pee


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice