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 Post subject: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:31 pm 
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I bought two M2s a couple of weeks ago. Checked the trigger pulls in the store, somewhat inconsistent but heavy. When I got home I tried them normally and was disappointed that they both have lots of creep. Talked to customer service, they sent shipping labels and I sent them in. They told me that spec on the triggers was 5#-7#(Wow)! I did not load or shoot them. Brand new.

I read Randy Wakeman's M2 review a while back. He also had a heavy trigger and said he was going to send the trigger group back, that Benelli customer service said that the triggers on M2s typically break at 3#-5#. I have not been able to find any follow up on his experience with customer service. In his review, he said:

The sole problem remaining with the supplied M2 is the trigger that breaks at a heavier weight than the entire gun at 6-1/2 pounds. Good triggers on shotguns seem to be rare commodities these days. However, after talking with the good folks at Benelli I'm advised that most M2 triggers run in the 3-5 pound area. So, just as soon as I'm finished with this review the trigger guard is going off to Benelli and I'll report back with the results. Benelli has had extremely good customer service in times past, so there is no reason to think that this instance will be any different.

Here's the link to the entire review:
https://randywakeman.com/Review_Benelli ... _Gauge.htm

My guns are on their way back now, so I called customer service to see what they did. They said there's no creep, one trigger averages 6# 4oz, the other 6# 10oz. They didn't touch them, saying they're "In Spec". I think their specs are poor. Anybody else have this problem? Am I being too picky? Is a crisp trigger at 5# or less too much to ask?




Last edited by Paddler on Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:45 pm 
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Quote:
5/21/2010 Update: The trigger was evaluated and adjusted by Benelli Customer Service, improving the original break weight of 6-1/2 lbs. to 4-3/4 lbs. as measured by Lyman Electronic trigger gauge, a substantial and welcomed change. As mentioned above, stripping the M2 is pathetically easy. Take off the barrel and forearm, pull off the bolt handle and slide out the bolt assembly, tap out one pin from the receiver and out comes the trigger group. That's all there is to it. Internally, it was so clean you couldn't tell that it had ever been fired. A light coat of Montana Extreme Gun oil on the breech assembly was all the lube it received prior to reassembly.


Yes, Benelli did a very good job cleaning up the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:36 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Quote:
5/21/2010 Update: The trigger was evaluated and adjusted by Benelli Customer Service, improving the original break weight of 6-1/2 lbs. to 4-3/4 lbs. as measured by Lyman Electronic trigger gauge, a substantial and welcomed change. As mentioned above, stripping the M2 is pathetically easy. Take off the barrel and forearm, pull off the bolt handle and slide out the bolt assembly, tap out one pin from the receiver and out comes the trigger group. That's all there is to it. Internally, it was so clean you couldn't tell that it had ever been fired. A light coat of Montana Extreme Gun oil on the breech assembly was all the lube it received prior to reassembly.


Yes, Benelli did a very good job cleaning up the trigger.


Thanks, Randy, I didn't see that update. I'd be very happy with a 4 3/4# trigger. In my note to CS, I requested a crisp trigger of not more than 5#. I sent an email to Randy Orr asking him to reconsider. Do you mind if I send a link to this thread? You obviously have more pull than I.


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:50 am 
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Having too much pull was the problem. :shock:

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 Post subject: Complications!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:08 pm 
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My guns arrived arrived today. I spoke with Randy Orr at Benelli Customer Service yesterday, he reiterated that CS only wants to ensure their guns meet spec and function okay. If Benelli says a mediocre/crappy trigger is in spec, done deal. However, he invited me to send just the trigger groups back for another look.

So I was taking the triggers out of the guns with I noticed the outside edge of the bottom of the ejection port on the 20 gauge was very galled. Not just finish wear, but galled so badly that refinishing won't fix it. It looks to me like the oversized bolt handle is responsible. The gun was new and unfired by me when I sent it in the first time. So, a simple trigger problem is now is much bigger. Unfortunately, I didn't get photos of the damage before sending it back. Waiting to hear from Randy. Anybody else have galling of the ejection port on a 20 gauge? I also asked him to check the triggers, whoever said there was no creep is up in the night. Badly. Stand by, I may have to shop other guns.


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:02 pm 
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Well, this is an ongoing nightmare. Just to catch you up to date, I talked to Benelli a week or so ago. Randy Orr told me at the time that the trigger on the 12 gauge now breaks at just under 5#, the 20 just over 5#. He tells me they can't do any better because the trigger guard is plastic. I call BS. The scoring on the 20 gauge receiver was caused by the bolt handle when they test fired it at Benelli USA. Randy said there is no shoulder on the oversized bolt handle to prevent it from being pushed too far through the bolt, allowing the flange to contact and gall the receiver. But that is incorrect. There is a .009" shoulder on the handle. The reason for the galling is the play between the bolt and the receiver.
Increasing the length of the shoulder should fix the problem. I emailed Randy explaining the cause but didn't get a reply. He's sending me a couple of standard bolt handles so it won't happen again. I call that piss poor design on the factory oversized bolt handles. Until that is corrected by Benelli, I would recommend against using the factory oversized handle. This begs the question, of course, of why they sent the damaged gun back to me in the first place.

He told me they "dressed" the 20 gauge receiver and it's out to be ceracoated. So, I sent them two new guns, unfired, and they're sending back a gun they damaged and refinished. Not impressed, of course.

The 12 gauge trigger I got back today remains just horrible. There is nearly 1/8" of gritty creep and it's still too heavy. I can't really say they did anything to it. Randy tells me they can't do much about the creep because it's plastic, that they're not "precision" triggers. I think the problem is the side-to-side play in the hammer. Ridiculous. There is so much play in the hammer that if they reduced the trigger pull weight or the creep it could be unsafe. Outrageous design, materials and build quality here. I compared it to an old Remington 1100 that's been sitting in my closet for thirty years and the difference is night and day. The latter is crisp and not more than 4#. The Benelli is a POS in comparison.

Given the sh*tty triggers, the design defect in the oversized bolt handles that can gall your receiver for you, it's hard for me to recommend anybody buy an M2. Can't wait to see what they did to the 20 gauge. These are $1400, by the way. Is there a lemon law for shotguns?


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:42 am 
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My 20 gauge got back to me yesterday, two months after I bought it from Scheels. The 12 gauge got back a couple of weeks ago. They did fine on the 20 gauge receiver, can't tell that it was galled and then refinished. Both guns feel good, 6# and 7# for the 20 gauge and 12 gauge, respectively. They handle and look good, so that's nice.

That leaves the triggers, which are still atrocious. They said the 12 gauge trigger breaks at 4# 15oz, the 20 at 5# 4oz. I don't have a trigger pull scale, so cannot confirm that. However, if you hang the 20 gauge from your finger on the trigger, it won't break. Ridiculous. Also, the creep on both guns is the worst I've ever seen. Benelli should be embarrassed.

Bottom line, if you buy these guns, beware of the triggers, they're very poor and may not be easily fixable. And, you should probably avoid the oversized bolt handles as they can gall the receiver. I will keep them for now because returning them is too much trouble. If I was in the market for I new gun, though, I'd look elsewhere.

Anybody out there who knows how to safely improve the triggers on these? I know that several companies offer lighter replacement springs, but is there anything one can do to eliminate the creep?


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:17 pm 
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Send the triggers to Jim at Rich Cole's shop in Maine. www.colegun.com. If he can't make them better, no one can.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:13 pm 
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Paddler wrote:

Anybody out there who knows how to safely improve the triggers on these? I know that several companies offer lighter replacement springs, but is there anything one can do to eliminate the creep?


The Firearms Specialists, LLC

Dave Sommerfeldt

4717 State Road 44

Oshkosh, WI 54904

Phone number for any questions: 920-230-GUNS .

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Last edited by RandyWakeman on Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:38 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Paddler wrote:

Anybody out there who knows how to safely improve the triggers on these? I know that several companies offer lighter replacement springs, but is there anything one can do to eliminate the creep?


The Firearms Specialists, LLC

Dave Sommerfeldt

Ezoicreport this ad4717 State Road 44

Oshkosh, WI 54904

Phone number for any questions: 920-230-GUNS .


Thanks, Randy. I was meaning to ask you if your M2 trigger has much creep? Both of mine have a ton. I'll post up a video if I can figure out how.


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:54 pm 
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No, I've had several M2's. The worst was the M2 20 gauge, but in my case, Benelli did a fine job cleaning it up.

The sole problem remaining with the supplied M2 is the trigger that breaks at a heavier weight than the entire gun at 6-1/2 pounds. Good triggers on shotguns seem to be rare commodities these days. However, after talking with the good folks at Benelli I'm advised that most M2 triggers run in the 3-5 pound area. So, just as soon as I'm finished with this review the trigger guard is going off to Benelli and I'll report back with the results. Benelli has had extremely good customer service in times past, so there is no reason to think that this instance will be any different.

Update: The trigger was evaluated and adjusted by Benelli Customer Service, improving the original break weight of 6-1/2 lbs. to 4-3/4 lbs. as measured by Lyman Electronic trigger gauge, a substantial and welcomed change. As mentioned above, stripping the M2 is pathetically easy.

My personal experience with Benelli Customer Service has been quite good. If things have changed as of late, I can't say. As far as the we can't do anything "because the trigger is plastic," that makes zero sense. The sears are metal. Benelli trigger assemblies are no more plastic than most. I don't expect a race trigger nor triggers as good as a quality O/U, but they should be better than a $500 Mossberg or TriStar.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:18 pm 
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I'm not going to criticize customer service except to say communication could have been better. The poor triggers are entirely on Benelli, they should never ship a gun like that. Blame it on poor design, or materials, or manufacturing methods, or quality control, or whatever, they make make it tough on customer service. In my world there's no room for a heavy trigger with almost an eighth inch of creep, especially on a $1400 gun. They should build a better trigger group and recall the affected guns.

Here's the video. Customer Service said there was no creep the first time. I gave them another chance, this is how they shipped it back;

https://youtu.be/UJTDArgYy0s


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:20 am 
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I'd give Dave a call.

The Firearms Specialists, LLC

Dave Sommerfeldt

4717 State Road 44

Oshkosh, WI 54904

Phone number for any questions: 920-230-GUNS .

Dave charges $85, return shipping included. He can improve it, but "silk purse out of a sow's ear" applies.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:04 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
I'd give Dave a call.

The Firearms Specialists, LLC

Dave Sommerfeldt

4717 State Road 44

Oshkosh, WI 54904

Phone number for any questions: 920-230-GUNS .

Dave charges $85, return shipping included. He can improve it, but "silk purse out of a sow's ear" applies.


Yeah, I hear you. Especially a road kill sow. I'll give him a call.


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:28 pm 
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I called them but didn't get to talk to Dave. The guy I did speak with wouldn't explain what they did on their "trigger job", it's a secret. He did say they didn't clean up the trigger inside, which I take to mean they don't polish the trigger or hammer. That just leaves replacing the springs, and I don't need to send the trigger groups back to Wisconsin along with $85 for that.

Looking at the trigger, as you begin to pull it, the hammer is actually pushed down further, or back, if you prefer, before it releases. Which means you're fighting the hammer spring directly while pulling the trigger, as well as the trigger return spring. Seems weird to me, but I haven't looked at any similar designs. So, spring replacement seems logical. That wouldn't actually reduce the creep but should make it less noticeable.

The other two things one could do is reduce the sear engagement by removing material from the front of the sear itself, and polishing the contact surfaces. Think I'll start by using lapping compound to polish the surfaces, which may get rid of the gritty feeling, then address the spring issue. However, just pulling the trigger without the hammer engaged is gritty. I should be able to improve things, but the design itself doesn't help much.


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:34 pm 
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I just checked my son's M2 20 gauge trigger. It does not have the creep as yours does in the video you posted.

Also, I did the "Wakeman" trigger pull weight method and even with his light 26" 20 ga synthetic M2, it can't even come close to supporting the weight of the gun. I'd guess it's in the ~4lbs range with almost no creep (there's some minor creep but not much--certainly no where near what you showed in the video). On this particular gun, I'd never even consider it needing a trigger job (but all guns even of the same model can have idiosyncrasies).


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:29 pm 
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Paddler wrote:
I called them but didn't get to talk to Dave.


Dave has done several triggers for me and has never replaced a spring. No springs were replaced on a Mossberg SA-20, nor on a Retay Gordion 12 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:57 pm 
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MNGunner wrote:
I just checked my son's M2 20 gauge trigger. It does not have the creep as yours does in the video you posted.

Also, I did the "Wakeman" trigger pull weight method and even with his light 26" 20 ga synthetic M2, it can't even come close to supporting the weight of the gun. I'd guess it's in the ~4lbs range with almost no creep (there's some minor creep but not much--certainly no where near what you showed in the video). On this particular gun, I'd never even consider it needing a trigger job (but all guns even of the same model can have idiosyncrasies).


Thanks for the feedback, wish my triggers were like yours. Funny, I traded my old black M2 when I bought these two and never noticed the trigger on that gun being heavy or having any creep. Just rechecked the new 20 gauge, it still will not break the trigger when suspended from a finger.

Thanks, Randy. I wasn't allowed to talk to Dave and they wouldn't explain what they do on an M2 trigger.

Here are a couple of videos. The first shows how the hammer is pushed further back when the trigger is pulled, Seems weird to me, never seen this before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wezL6oO183g

The second one shows the sear engagement, which is limited by the hammer contacting the sear body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqWmZJdyExk

Seems the only way to the reduce creep on this trigger design is to reduce the contact area by honing the sear. One can reduce the feeling of creep, as well as the trigger pull weight by reducing the spring pressure. I'm seeing pull weights of ~3.5# with the Taran Tactical springs. I'll be ordering some, and maybe hone the sear if it still needs it.


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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:13 pm 
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Paddler wrote:
Seems the only way to the reduce creep on this trigger design is to reduce the contact area by honing the sear.


That's not a terrific idea, as it is easy to end up with an unstable trigger. I can tell you that a B-80 runs full automatic quite nicely. :shock:

Many people don't seem to care about autoloading shotgun triggers. As a result, we end up with triggers that most would find intolerable on an O/U, but with repeaters it is deemed just fine. Trigger assembly is not easily automated, so you have folks knocking pins into plastic blocks and you get what you get. It isn't possible to get the 4-1/4 lb. glass rod break of most any vintage Automatic-Five with many current plastic block trigger offerings.

If you ask a manufacturer what spec is on their triggers, you probably won't like the answer. Too often, no matter what you have, it is "within spec." Or, you'll get some incomprehensible mumbling about mythical liability . . . even though the same manufacturer's rifles, O/U's, or handguns are far, far lighter. I had a couple of Browning Golds and Silvers with 6 - 7 pound triggers.

I called Browning and asked what their specification was. The answer was "five pounds, maximum." The conversation continued, "If I send my new Golds and Silvers to you, you'll adjust them within specification?" The answer was, "Yes, of course."

I tried it twice, and when the guns came back (eventually) nothing measurable or perceptible had changed.

Image

The loudly obvious problem with the PA-08 20 gauge test shotgun is the trigger, for it breaks at an absurdly ridiculous 11 – 12 lbs., rendering this shotgun unusable as far as I'm concerned. A trigger this bad should never leave any factory. There isn't much else to say at this juncture except to suggest that before you pull the trigger on a PA-08, you might want to make sure that you actually can. Weatherby was immediately advised of the trigger problem.

This shotgun was returned to Weatherby. According to Weatherby, their spec on their autoloading and slide action shotguns is a 6 - 8 lb. trigger pull. Weatherby adjusted the trigger on this PA-08 and shipped it back. However it remains unacceptably heavy breaking at 8-1/2 - 9-1/4 lbs. Moreover, it has an excruciatingly long take-up with false stops and is a very poor trigger even beyond the heavy break weight. The last thing I want is a 6-1/2 lb. shotgun with a two pound heavier trigger than the entire gun weight to try to fight.

As a result of many, many situations like this . . . I generally don't waste my time with manufacturers, and just send the triggers to Dave. You'll get a good trigger out of the box with a Fabarm L4S or XLR5, and if it doesn't suit you their gunsmiths will quickly take care of it. For most of the others, it is far easier (and quicker) to just send the trigger guards to Dave and be done with it.

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 Post subject: Re: M2 Trigger??
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:48 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Paddler wrote:
Seems the only way to the reduce creep on this trigger design is to reduce the contact area by honing the sear.


That's not a terrific idea, as it is easy to end up with an unstable trigger. I can tell you that a B-80 runs full automatic quite nicely. :shock:

Many people don't seem to care about autoloading shotgun triggers. As a result, we end up with triggers that most would find intolerable on an O/U, but with repeaters it is deemed just fine. Trigger assembly is not easily automated, so you have folks knocking pins into plastic blocks and you get what you get. It isn't possible to get the 4-1/4 lb. glass rod break of most any vintage Automatic-Five with many current plastic block trigger offerings.

If you ask a manufacturer what spec is on their triggers, you probably won't like the answer. Too often, no matter what you have, it is "within spec." Or, you'll get some incomprehensible mumbling about mythical liability . . . even though the same manufacturer's rifles, O/U's, or handguns are far, far lighter. I had a couple of Browning Golds and Silvers with 6 - 7 pound triggers.

I called Browning and asked what their specification was. The answer was "five pounds, maximum." The conversation continued, "If I send my new Golds and Silvers to you, you'll adjust them within specification?" The answer was, "Yes, of course."

I tried it twice, and when the guns came back (eventually) nothing measurable or perceptible had changed.

Image

The loudly obvious problem with the PA-08 20 gauge test shotgun is the trigger, for it breaks at an absurdly ridiculous 11 – 12 lbs., rendering this shotgun unusable as far as I'm concerned. A trigger this bad should never leave any factory. There isn't much else to say at this juncture except to suggest that before you pull the trigger on a PA-08, you might want to make sure that you actually can. Weatherby was immediately advised of the trigger problem.

This shotgun was returned to Weatherby. According to Weatherby, their spec on their autoloading and slide action shotguns is a 6 - 8 lb. trigger pull. Weatherby adjusted the trigger on this PA-08 and shipped it back. However it remains unacceptably heavy breaking at 8-1/2 - 9-1/4 lbs. Moreover, it has an excruciatingly long take-up with false stops and is a very poor trigger even beyond the heavy break weight. The last thing I want is a 6-1/2 lb. shotgun with a two pound heavier trigger than the entire gun weight to try to fight.

As a result of many, many situations like this . . . I generally don't waste my time with manufacturers, and just send the triggers to Dave. You'll get a good trigger out of the box with a Fabarm L4S or XLR5, and if it doesn't suit you their gunsmiths will quickly take care of it. For most of the others, it is far easier (and quicker) to just send the trigger guards to Dave and be done with it.


Thanks, Randy. I checked a few other guns last night. My circa 1953 Model 12 is really good, the proverbial glass rod at I'd guess ~4#. My 1100 is very good as well, my Beretta Onyx, in fact, all my double guns, boxlock and sidelock, are great. The closest I have to the M2s is my old Remington 550-1, but even it is better.

I wonder how many hunters/shooters today even care about triggers, or even know what a good trigger feels like. Maybe they're so used to garbage like the M2s that manufacturers think putting out this type of trigger is okay. I don't. Maybe if they got enough feedback from buyers and gun writers they'd do a better job.

As far as Dave goes, because they wouldn't let me talk to him or explain what they do, besides telling me they don't "clean up" the inside, I'm not going to send them in. To extend the livestock analogy beyond the sow's ear, never buy a pig in a poke.

The only things one can do to improve those triggers is to reduce spring tension or reduce sear engagement. Nothing can be done to change the geometry, so nothing will change the fact that pulling the trigger means you're fighting the hammer spring. If The Firearm Specialists said they polish the contact surfaces, or reduced the sear by .010" or 015", etc, something I don't do every day, then I could give them a try. As a matter of fact, I was thinking that an elegant solution would be to drill and tap the sear for a set screw, thereby making the sear engagement adjustable.

Randy, when you have a chance, maybe you could mike your hammer spring; length, diameter and wire diameter. I cannot fathom how they improve that trigger much using the stock springs.




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