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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:59 pm 
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Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.



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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Location: Houston, TX USA
blackandgold wrote:
Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.

See, you are an example of someone who has talent. Someone who starts at 77 has a reasonable expectation of improving into the 90s. Someone who starts at 10, well not so much. Maybe, but don’t bet on it. Shotgun shooting at targets is a bizarre pursuit in that the general opinion is everyone can be great at it. If you are not, you have mind game problems or haven’t taken enough lessons from good enough coaches (like champion competitors) or maybe even just haven’t spent enough on your gun, your shells, and of course your glasses. But that is all BS. Most folks suck at it and always will. They just don’t post here. Well, I take that back. One of them does.

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:06 pm 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
blackandgold wrote:
Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.

See, you are an example of someone who has talent. Someone who starts at 77 has a reasonable expectation of improving into the 90s. Someone who starts at 10, well not so much. Maybe, but don’t bet on it. Shotgun shooting at targets is a bizarre pursuit in that the general opinion is everyone can be great at it. If you are not, you have mind game problems or haven’t taken enough lessons from good enough coaches (like champion competitors) or maybe even just haven’t spent enough on your gun, your shells, and of course your glasses. But that is all BS. Most folks suck at it and always will. They just don’t post here. Well, I take that back. One of them does.


I believe it is more of an example of seeking out a quality coaching school and listening to them. Talent or no, shooting clays for me was not instinctive at all at first. I had come from a rifle background and was a first class bead checker/measurer, which we all know doesn't work. Now, I make mistakes of barrel checking/measuring (we all do on fear targets if we are honest), but it is far less than originally.

Dan Krumm quickly broke me of that thinking using simple explanations and my hits went from 2/10 or 5/10 to 8/10 and up to 10/10. My memory isn't great but I recall shooting close, slow rabbits, mini or midi teals (all I recall was a bemused look at the breaks and saying they were smaller than standard). The only target we did not shoot was battues, he showed me one and I about had a stroke haha! Also didn't shoot rabbues or 70s those weren't quite a thing yet. I then got bumped up to Anthony Matarese for competition lessons, which I never did. College, work and life got in the way.

I think finding a coach that speaks your language and has info that you buy into can make a world of difference.

AIM and OSP 100% has helped to go from conscious learning to muscle memory on many targets.

One of the biggest hurdles I think the new and middling shooters face, is going from being "in the zone" to crapping your pants. I think great value is in learning to shoot with soiled pants and overcoming your fear to get back to your zone.

Or you can just change your scorecard in the port-a-can, whatever works! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:34 pm 
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^^^^^ Nice :)

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:30 pm 
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blackandgold wrote:
Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.


I’m pretty new to the sport but I think 77 on your first try out is a very good score. I was there a couple weeks ago with Dan also and we didn’t keep score - thank goodness, but I didn’t do nearly as well as that. Not a reflection on Dan at all rather on my need to get it together.


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 3238
BobFM wrote:
blackandgold wrote:
Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.


I’m pretty new to the sport but I think 77 on your first try out is a very good score. I was there a couple weeks ago with Dan also and we didn’t keep score - thank goodness, but I didn’t do nearly as well as that. Not a reflection on Dan at all rather on my need to get it together.


Did you have fun? M&M is one of the best places to shoot! Dan is a great guy!

I don't usually keep score, however my squad mates cheer my every miss, so I have a pretty good idea of where I am in the round. Positive Performance through Punishment is our motto :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:15 pm 
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blackandgold wrote:
BobFM wrote:
blackandgold wrote:
Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.


I’m pretty new to the sport but I think 77 on your first try out is a very good score. I was there a couple weeks ago with Dan also and we didn’t keep score - thank goodness, but I didn’t do nearly as well as that. Not a reflection on Dan at all rather on my need to get it together.


Did you have fun? M&M is one of the best places to shoot! Dan is a great guy!

I don't usually keep score, however my squad mates cheer my every miss, so I have a pretty good idea of where I am in the round. Positive Performance through Punishment is our motto :mrgreen:



I’m not sure it was “fun” because I missed more than I hit, but Dan is a very good instructor.

However something I failed to mention was that my gun was improperly fitted to me (won’t mention a name) and the adjustable comb was way off. I didn’t know enough to know that my new Zoli wasn’t fitting me properly. I’m reminded of something Sera mentioned some months ago - that many “gunfitters” are charlatans. He’s correct!

I tried to book a lesson and a fitting with Anthony but our schedules didn’t match.
I ended up getting a proper gun fitting and some shooting with the gun fitter at Griffin & Howe. And he ain’t no charlatan - the gun fit me well and I broke plenty of targets.
And that’s also when I tried the B&P shells - very low recoil.


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 pm
Posts: 3238
BobFM wrote:
blackandgold wrote:
BobFM wrote:
Define competence. Define "good" shooting. Once we agree on what those terms mean, we will then be further along on our path to nowhere.

My baseline is 77 at M&M Hunting Preserve in NJ on a mix of targets from both courses selected by Dan Krumm of AIM Shooting School. That's my first "score" ever, before I knew anything about lead, gunfit, mental games (largely overrated for the SGW crowd) chokes and shotshell choices. That was my first time ever shooting at clays targets, of any variety.

77 is a HORRIBLE score and I am ashamed to admit to it. I will go flog myself now in penance.


I’m pretty new to the sport but I think 77 on your first try out is a very good score. I was there a couple weeks ago with Dan also and we didn’t keep score - thank goodness, but I didn’t do nearly as well as that. Not a reflection on Dan at all rather on my need to get it together.


Did you have fun? M&M is one of the best places to shoot! Dan is a great guy!

I don't usually keep score, however my squad mates cheer my every miss, so I have a pretty good idea of where I am in the round. Positive Performance through Punishment is our motto :mrgreen:



I’m not sure it was “fun” because I missed more than I hit, but Dan is a very good instructor.

However something I failed to mention was that my gun was improperly fitted to me (won’t mention a name) and the adjustable comb was way off. I didn’t know enough to know that my new Zoli wasn’t fitting me properly. I’m reminded of something Sera mentioned some months ago - that many “gunfitters” are charlatans. He’s correct!

I tried to book a lesson and a fitting with Anthony but our schedules didn’t match.
I ended up getting a proper gun fitting and some shooting with the gun fitter at Griffin & Howe. And he ain’t no charlatan - the gun fit me well and I broke plenty of targets.
And that’s also when I tried the B&P shells - very low recoil.[/quote]

You had a Zoli that didn't fit too! Dan had a good time ribbing me about my Zoli HR. Beat me up but us men can handle it. My fiancee has that gun now.

I don't enjoy hitting targets in and of itself. Ok, I like smokeballs, those are really cool! Otherwise, really could care less. I enjoy the process of going from sh!tting myself to taking the target for granted or simply stated, building technical skills.

I guess I am saying if you begin to enjoy the journey(process) more than the result you will have more fun. At least until you want to win money. Then you're screwed and have to do something else (flyers or another sport).

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:30 pm 
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Bob-
You also need to remember that you're just getting started and there are still LOTS of presentations you haven't seen much less gotten a working handle on breaking them :wink:

Every time I go to the Club I run across certain targets and presentations I haven't seen or worked on. It takes a while to build up a target inventory and the more different Clubs you can visit helps to add to that inventory because due to different terrain/backgrounds etc does make a difference.

Stay positive and don't get down on yourself :D Remember Sporting is a life time Marathon of learning :wink: So enjoy your outings and learn every time out. {hs#

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TSRA LIFE MEMBER
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Rose City Clays - Tyler TX
5H Shooting Sports Frankston TX ( Formally the Chicken Ranch)
Caney Creek- Teague TX


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:52 pm 
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I don't enjoy hitting targets in and of itself. Ok, I like smokeballs, those are really cool! Otherwise, really could care less. I enjoy the process of going from sh!tting myself to taking the target for granted or simply stated, building technical skills.

I guess I am saying if you begin to enjoy the journey(process) more than the result you will have more fun. At least until you want to win money. Then you're screwed and have to do something else (flyers or another sport).[/quote][/quote]


Thanks BG.
Well I have not as yet sh!tt myself and have every intention in keeping it that way. :s
I do appreciate and hear what you say about the process.


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:56 pm 
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hopper810 wrote:
Bob-
You also need to remember that you're just getting started and there are still LOTS of presentations you haven't seen much less gotten a working handle on breaking them :wink:

Every time I go to the Club I run across certain targets and presentations I haven't seen or worked on. It takes a while to build up a target inventory and the more different Clubs you can visit helps to add to that inventory because due to different terrain/backgrounds etc does make a difference.

Stay positive and don't get down on yourself :D Remember Sporting is a life time Marathon of learning :wink: So enjoy your outings and learn every time out. {hs#


Thanks Jerry. Good points.

As an aside, since this is Gil’s forum and we have gone into other “areas of conversation” maybe we should take have this discussion in another area?


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 pm 
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BobFM wrote:
I don't enjoy hitting targets in and of itself. Ok, I like smokeballs, those are really cool! Otherwise, really could care less. I enjoy the process of going from sh!tting myself to taking the target for granted or simply stated, building technical skills.

I guess I am saying if you begin to enjoy the journey(process) more than the result you will have more fun. At least until you want to win money. Then you're screwed and have to do something else (flyers or another sport).
[/quote]


Thanks BG.
Well I have not as yet sh!tt myself and have every intention in keeping it that way. :s
I do appreciate and hear what you say about the process.[/quote]

Just for those who aren't self aware (this is not aimed at anyone in particular, I wasn't being literal about sh!tting oneself, though I suppose it is a risk we all take.

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:30 pm 
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[/quote]Just for those who aren't self aware (this is not aimed at anyone in particular, I wasn't being literal about sh!tting oneself, though I suppose it is a risk we all take.[/quote]

Of course you weren't being literal about that - that's why the smiley thing. But I apologize for the possible confusion as I guess anything on the Net can be misconstrued.


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:50 am 
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Fal777

Yes there is a ton of reference material in the Knowledge Vault

Your problem is not shutting down the conscious mind! It is however you are not predicting how and where your next shot is going to come together and as a result you are not building long term memory of sight pictures necessary to shoot with out thinking. To shoot without thinking you must predict and then execute based on your prediction many times. You hear the phrase “just trust it” time and time again but where is the stuff you are supposed to trust located?

The answer is you must first build it through prediction and execution based on your prediction and after a few thousand single targets you will begin to be able to shoot without thinking. Without a vivid movie of how and where you want the shot to come together you will continue to struggle and chase the targets down and attempt to fix the shot at the end.

We have 25-30 podcasts on this very thing and our forum is full of comments from real shooters who we have helped with this very thing and unlike some forums the posters willingly share their experiences freely and generously!!!!! To quote Jack Flesher our forum is the best forum he has ever been involved with. Email me your contacts and I will call you and discuss [email protected]


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:33 am 
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I keep forgetting how far behind the USA is in sporting clays. Spot on, Gil!

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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:53 pm 
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B&G

you are welcome Sir


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:05 pm 
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When I started SC's, the Ash's books and videos were the basis for my start. they were and are the foundation I have built on. most importantly, the mental stuff. While I understood parts of the mental game.....the February issue Clay Target Nation article Mental Management just brought it all together for me. THANKS for a superb article. What a fascinating game this is!


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:30 pm 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
IMO if you can’t do something by thinking about it, you certainly won’t be able to do it by not thinking about it.


True words.


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:32 pm 
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rpenmanparker wrote:
I believe that ingraining learned techniques and fundamentals means you can think faster and more efficiently, not that you don't think anymore.


+1


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 Post subject: Re: Shutting down the conscious mind?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:50 pm
Posts: 25
It's human nature, the more you don't want to think about something, the harder it is not to think about it. I'm a relative beginner at this, and try as I might, it's REALLY HARD to trust the subconscious mind, and not sneak in just a peek at the barrel to check the lead. Reminds me of a great scene from a movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aW8oyTgA60




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