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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
I'd have to check the proof tables for the 1912 rules, but more than likely the reason the 28 bore is stamped 14mm is that there wasn't proof data for the 28 bore designation so either AD. Voelker, Buenos Aires, San Martin 319, or his contact, had to supply the 14mm cartridge data. Then again, maybe the 14mm data would suffice?

Is 32 bore, not 28...

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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:14 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
Image

Sauer Quality Crown along with the touchmark of a Wildmann w/ a Staff being a Sauer Process mark.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
I'll get to moving the 1891/1892/1893 proof law data over to an image & post here, but here's the link to the proof tables where Kaliber Nr. 28 bore = 13,92mm:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... Post213433

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Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:53 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
Steve typically has a handsome fee on the wares he peddles, but see the asking price of $29K + US of A on this Sauer Modell Nr. 45(more than like a Daly Modell Number) 20 bore:

https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/20-gauge-shotguns-ip

https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/jp-sau ... s-20-gauge

The Sauer of subject is either a Modell 60 or higher(?)???

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:37 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
Thank you very much for all the detailed information, Raimey!
I do live in Argentina and the case was made by a local saddler.
I understand english but it’s not easy for me.
Regards from Argentina,
Leopoldo


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:05 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
No worries Leopoldo(Polo?). I should be able to communicate in Español via the IM(Instant Messenger) if need be. I've been to Argentina several times and it is like a huge Texas will an iceberg @ the tip. This is a great find of a Modell Nr. XVIII with 2 tubesets. I'd say better than the examples @ the time The Brits were churning out on the little British Isles.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
:D https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it ... tem_id=635


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:37 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
Image

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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdju ... /2584-391/


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:01 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
I thumbed thru a few J.P. Sauer & Sohn serial numbers to aide in the date bounding:

J.P. Sauer & Sohn - Modell Nr. XVIII(E) Meisterwerk

179703 - Modell Nr. XVIII - 12 Bore - Exported to South America possibly made in 1915

179756/7 12/12 Bore Two Barrel Set - Modell Nr. XVIII(E) Meisterwerk

184xxx 20 Bore - Modell Nr. XVIII(E) Meisterwerk

191773 - 16 Bore - Given as Modell Nr. 40(Daly designation)

200094 - 20 Bore

200095 - 20 Bore

205001 - Modell Nr. II - Completion date - April 12, 1921

205004 - Modell Nr. II - Completion date - January 14, 1922

206001 - Modell Nr. I - Completion date - June 18, 1922

207001 - Modell Nr. 8 - 12 Bore - Completion date - Oktober 26, 1922

208001 - Modell Nr. XVII - 12 Bore - Completion date - January 20, 1922

208005 - Modell Nr. XVII - 12 Bore - Completion date - January 5, 1922

208873 - Modell Nr. XVII - 12 Bore

209001 - Modell Nr. XXXI(a) - 12 Bore Pigeon - Completion date - December 15, 1923

209469/70 - Modell Nr. XVII

213043 - Modell XVIII Meisterwerk - 12 Bore

214082 - Given as Modell Nr. XVII

214382/3 - 20/28 Bore Two Barrel Set - Modell Nr. XVIII(E) Meisterwerk

215001 - Modell Nr. XVII - 12 Bore - Completion date - September 27th, 1924


Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:30 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
Also, permit me to be clear here. A block of steel that was to become Nummer 214382/3 was issued a serial number in circa 1919 but not completed till mid to late 1924. It passed thru the Suhl proof facility prior to the September 1923 when the application of the datecode commenced and then was finished in say the span of a year.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:30 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
Master!!!!?!!


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:33 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
Not sure on the term Master but more along the lines of Boludo.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:49 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
Raimey, when I said you "Master" I was trying to said you know a lot of about J.P. Sauer & Sohn! Any other intentions!
I reed you soon.


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:23 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
Entiendo...... I just have good references from efforts of follow collectors who acquired much info.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:21 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
An enlargement of the 1891 proof law data:

Image

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:36 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:53 am
Posts: 16
Hello, the second barrel is 32 gauge. Checked

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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:42 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
A chamber cast will ferret out the demon cartridge but @ the time of proof the tubeset passed thru the Suhl proof facility as a 14mm which by the proof tables was a 28 bore. It would be all but impossible to convert a 28 bore to a 32 bore. Not sure of the dimensions of the 32 bore cartridges nor your chamber, but today you can call it what you fancy if, if the 32 bore cartridges fit properly. If I were the custodian, I'd @ least try a couple different 28 bore cartridge types.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:52 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
Seems @ the time, the 32 bore was designated as a 14mm & that may be the reason the flats are stamped 14mm & not 28 bore? Note the Remington Advert from an 1918-1919 catalogue.....

http://www.thesnipehunter.com/page29.html

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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 Post subject: Re: J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1919
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:55 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: North Alabama
So I guess it would be proper to refer to it as a 14mm scattergun & procure 14mm cartridges? I have seen similar references in the Sauer Tell rifles.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse




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