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 Post subject: Cased C. Guntermann od Dusseldorf 16 Gauge S X S help
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:47 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:11 am
Posts: 1
A friend has ask me to appraise a German 16 gauge built by Carl Gunterman of Dusseldorf in June of 1914. I can't find much information on the Guntermann shop. I have found drillings and cape guns but no comparable S X S. There were three Guntermanns involved. Carl Guntermann Sr. 1850 to 1880 F. Gunterman from 1865 to 1915 and Carl Guntermann Jr. 1906 to 1931. In 1931 the firm went bankrupt. This gun was made when C. Guntermann Jr. was running the firm. The gun is proofed as a shotgun, with choked barrels. It is nitro proofed for semi-smokeless powder which the predecessor of our modern powder. The gun is 45 & 3/4" long with 29 & 3/4" barrels. The LOP is 14" from the front trigger and 12 &3/4" from the rear trigger. The walnut and brass case is 32" x 9 & 1/2" x 3". The barrels are Wittener Steel. The chambers are 2 9/16" which is original to the gun.

The ZM and the register number show it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis, and was likely made in or near Zella-Mehlis for Guntermann to sell. It could very well have been finished in their shop. The 16 next to the 16 in a circle is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber, expressed in gauge measurement. This works out to 16.81mm. The lower case z is likely the "touch mark" of someone that worked on the gun ( to fix responsibility and insure payment for the work). There is no legend or listing of these marks, so the meaning is lost. This is a nice outfit.
Rough bored tubes were sourced from Syndicat Liégeois d'Armes de Guerre(or similar) in Liége.
The action filer / mechanic that applied the script lowercase Z can be narrowed to say 3 surnames:
Carl Zimmerman(or relative)
Carl Zink(or relative)

Any information that will help me appraise the gun will be appreciate. As you will see in the pictures there are two marks I have be unable to identify. Best guesses on value are welcome. A fulll set of pictures are available on Imagur with the link below.

Last edited by twines on Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

 Post subject: Re: Cased C. Guntermann od Dusseldorf 16 Gauge S X S help
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:40 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:54 am
Posts: 184
The guys at doubleguns are the same guys here that are the German gun experts. I am not an appraiser but have purchased many early German shotguns mostly WWII bring backs. I usually pay 600- 1200.00 for non ejector guns, but that case is quite rare I would guess it sells for 1800-2500.00 like that on GB. BEAUTIFUL GUN ! If it had ejectors easy 3k outfit.

 Post subject: Re: Cased C. Guntermann od Dusseldorf 16 Gauge S X S help
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:33 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1129
Location: Endless Mountains of PA

Beautiful old German 16 gauge Box Lock double gun, with real nice German style engraving, I do not appraise these weapons, however I have seen similar guns go for above $2,500. This gun maybe worth a lot more.

good luck with getting the gun appraised.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

L.C. Smith Man
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Charlton Heston NRA Speakers Bureau Member
NRA Life Member/NRA Instructor

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