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 Post subject: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:40 am 
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Location: Deutschland, Deutschland über alles
at the world championships of big boy skeet in Lonato yesterday. Wow. Just wow.

https://www.issf-sports.org/competition ... .1.SK125.0



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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:49 pm
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Location: Australia
Yep, some pretty amazing scores there!

If they keep it up they'll have to make it harder?


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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
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Incredible shooting! Waldyo has a point. I guess the next step in making it more difficult will be having gun unloaded until target appears! These guys and gals are really good.


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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:51 am 
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Location: Deutschland, Deutschland über alles
oyeme wrote:
Incredible shooting! Waldyo has a point. I guess the next step in making it more difficult will be having gun unloaded until target appears! These guys and gals are really good.


some of the stuff under consideration consists of eliminating some of the outgoing single shots and adding more reverse doubles at 3 and 5 and maybe even a double at 8.

you might have something like this

1. H, D
2. H, D
3. D, reverse D
4. D, reverse D
5. D, reverse D
6. L, D
7. D
8. H, L or D

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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:54 am 
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I'd actually like to see the current Olympic/International course of fire applied to American Skeet with standard American target speed, no pre-mount, and no delay - I think it would eliminate a lot of the shoot-offs and shorten the game. The added complexity might attract additional shooters. It seems to me that if you can't shoot doubles at 3/4/5 in American Skeet, there's no sense fooling yourself for 100 targets just to bow out two stations in to the shoot-off. Put them into the regular course of fire and let the chips fall where they may.

IMO, in every sport, the competitors evolve, and the game has to evolve with them. If you let it stagnate, for any reason, it can becomes predictable and you run the risk of people losing interest.

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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:23 am 
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wasthestumper wrote:
I'd actually like to see the current Olympic/International course of fire applied to American Skeet with standard American target speed, no pre-mount, and no delay - I think it would eliminate a lot of the shoot-offs and shorten the game. The added complexity might attract additional shooters. It seems to me that if you can't shoot doubles at 3/4/5 in American Skeet, there's no sense fooling yourself for 100 targets just to bow out two stations in to the shoot-off. Put them into the regular course of fire and let the chips fall where they may.

IMO, in every sport, the competitors evolve, and the game has to evolve with them. If you let it stagnate, for any reason, it can becomes predictable and you run the risk of people losing interest.


I am not sure making the easy game harder is going to attract more shooters. In Europe, ISSF Skeet is struggling because it is so hard. ISSF tournaments are not well attended. I went to the Perazzi Cup in Lonato one year. I know Danka Bartekova (one sweet, little biscuit) was there and she was already an olympic medalist so it was prolly 2014 or so. If I recall correctly, there were upwards of 700 trap shooters from around the world but maybe 70 skeet shooters and that included a few olympic athletes. Perazzi dropped skeet after that year and renamed it the Grand Mondiale.

In the NL, you might get 20-30 people to show up for an ISSF skeet competition but 100+ for the "Hunting Skeet" (or sitzpinkler skeet as the rest of us call it) which is a low gun but no timer and the only doubles are at 1, 2, 6, and 7 and lots of incoming single targets. The shooters of lesser ability who cannot shoot ISSF skeet are self-conscious and avoid big boy skeet. I think so many people have become accustomed to strings of 100 straights that making the US game harder would actually have the opposite effect on the US game and depress participation even more.

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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:07 am 
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wasthestumper wrote:
I'd actually like to see the current Olympic/International course of fire applied to American Skeet with standard American target speed, no pre-mount, and no delay - I think it would eliminate a lot of the shoot-offs and shorten the game. The added complexity might attract additional shooters. It seems to me that if you can't shoot doubles at 3/4/5 in American Skeet, there's no sense fooling yourself for 100 targets just to bow out two stations in to the shoot-off. Put them into the regular course of fire and let the chips fall where they may.

IMO, in every sport, the competitors evolve, and the game has to evolve with them. If you let it stagnate, for any reason, it can becomes predictable and you run the risk of people losing interest.


The theory works, MAYBE, if not for subgauges. Not may people going to stick around when their 410 scores drop into the 50s or 60s, which I guarantee would happen for your current <A class shooters.

You also need to consider that the average age of a NSSA shooter is easily >50, and probably closer >60, whereas the average age of a competitive ISSF shooter is <30.

Changing the format isn't going to entice new clientele, but it will definitely turn off what you have already. The $ barrier to entry is too high for NSSA skeet, and is a large reason for the decline and eventual death, rearranging deck chairs accomplishes nothing. The best thing NSSA could do would be to eliminate subgauges completely, then probably move to an ISSF target sequence ONLY, then numbers might pick back up, eliminate the need to spend to drop 3-4 grand on a tube set o/u and four reloaders before you start.

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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:17 am 
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jerrys wrote:
making the easy game harder


jerrys wrote:
The shooters of lesser ability who cannot shoot ISSF skeet are self-conscious and avoid big boy skeet.


How many 100 straights have you run in the so-called "easy game"? How many with the 410? If american skeet is so easy, how come the "big boy" ISSF shooters never come and pick the american shooters pockets? I can only think of one ISSF shooter who has bothered in the past couple decades, did decently @ the World a few times, not so much in the 410 or doubles events...

Any ISSF "big boy" that wants to travel to San Antonio can pick up a cool $1k for each championship...Hell, they could just sweep the shoot pretty easily and get a check for $8400 plus whatever they can pick up in purse and options...Probably walk out with $10k in their pocket for 5 days of work :roll:

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S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.webs.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:06 pm
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Skeet_Man wrote:
The best thing NSSA could do would be to eliminate subgauges completely, then probably move to an ISSF target sequence ONLY, then numbers might pick back up, eliminate the need to spend to drop 3-4 grand on a tube set o/u and four reloaders before you start.


Yep.

I'm not really in favor of those changes, as I like shooting sub gauges, and enjoy the game as is, but he's right. Sub gauges (and dealing with ammo) are off putting to a lot of people.

Sporting Clays is sexier so people don't spending $ on it, and trap isn't as intimidating and the barrier to entry is much lower.
American skeet falls somewhere in between (that's not a good thing for participation).


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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:46 pm 
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It's not a difficulty thing for me so much as it is a "tedium" thing. Entire days that extend into the nights with multiple classes and shoot-offs. Skeet is a game of discipline and mental management - there aren't a lot of younger takers for that from what I've seen these days. I don't think that aspect would be removed from the game - you're still shooting the same targets over and over - the presentations would just be a little more challenging up front. If you're good - you're going to get them eventually anyway. Society evolves, for better or for worse. Making the game a little more "dynamic" might generate some new interest. If Skeet is to survive in any meaningful way, it can't bet the future on 60+ shooters and then wonder what happed 20 years from now when they aren't around to support the game.

I love sub-gauge, and I reload. I shot 3-4-5 doubles last night with 20 gauge and was around 80-85% - I've shot better, but then I've never been a championship caliber shooter. They guy in front of me shot them with 28 gauge - his numbers were probably closer to 90-95%. He's won a few smaller shoots but not a world champion shooter - yet. The third guy is All-American class and he shot 20 gauge, missing virtually nothing. I agree that .410 becomes problematic for all but the best shooters, and I really like shooting .410, but I'd be willing to give it up if it was somehow better for the game. As much as I love 28ga, I MIGHT even be willing to let that go to, but then my solution for sub-gauge has always been to make them optional. Shoot what you want - open class or "traditional class". Everyone shoots if they want to.

I feel like it could be done, and that leaving the speeds, call and mount the same would be a reasonable compromise. No facilities would have to be changed. I'm pretty confident that the current NSSA "Big Guns" would still be the "Big Guns" - they might just have to accept that absolute perfection is less likely, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It works for Sporting Clays.

Again, it's not about the difficulty of the game for me - it's about the pace. I would surmise most ISSF guys couldn't be bothered with sub-gauge minutiae and the cost of travel, lodging, and participating would negate any real return. The juice has to worth the squeeze - they train for a different game.

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 Post subject: Re: so 121/125 was only good enough for 25th place
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:03 pm 
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JMO here but sporting has evolved thru the use of auto machines and targets have gotten more varied and harder as a result, what has happened to American Skeet and DTL over the same period? Not much that I am aware of at least not in this country (Australia).

Sporting has grown, American Skeet and DTL has not that has gotta say something?




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