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 Post subject: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Recently got a semi auto as a spare gun for my non-gun owning family and friends to shoot occasionally. I reload, normally AA or Gun Clubs for my O/U, but don't want to bother my niece about chasing hulls. I figured a throwaway shell is what I need.

I dumpster dived for some once fired fiocchi hulls that I could just once without asking my niece to worry about saving them. Found a good 1250fps recipe and used cb6100 wads for 1oz loads with w209 primers . All seemed fine. They did not seem like they were loose.

But, when I fired them in the semi auto, the primers blew out of the back of the hull. After several shots, the bolt jammed up on the gun and wouldn't open. I found two primers crushed and stuck in the back of the loading port of the gun.

After cleaning it out I tried another few shots. It happened again. This time, the bolt jammed in the open position. I removed the trigger assy and found a primer jammed in there as well another behind the bolt.

I stopped at that point.

I had heard mixed messages about whether or not w209 primers would work in fiocchi hulls. No I know.

For an o/u it would been perfectly fine. But not for a semi auto.



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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:59 am 
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Those mixed messages are a disservice. Fiocchi primers are larger than Winchesters. When it becomes a problem, it's a real problem that could/should have been avoided.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:44 am 
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As you’ve already discovered the flocchi primer is larger than the Winchester, therefore leaving the Winchesters loose in the hull when you reload. There are a few tools out there for reconditioning the primer pockets that should solve the problem.

If you’re reloading on a Mec machine there is an aftermarket depriving punch that will do it all for you made by Creative Loading Solutions. They work as advertised on most hulls.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
icyclefar wrote:
If you’re reloading on a Mec machine there is an aftermarket depriving punch that will do it all for you made by Creative Loading Solutions. They work as advertised on most hulls.


I do reload with a MEC and I do have the Ultimate Primer Punch installed on it. So.. it does recondition the primer pocket.

Maybe the issue is that the hole is simply larger on the fiocchi hulls and we can't reshape material that doesn't exist.

Maybe if it where a winchester hull, that I put a fiocchi primer in, the punch would allow me to go back to a w209. but starting with a fiocchi hull doesn't work... for me in this case

wildflights wrote:
Those mixed messages are a disservice. Fiocchi primers are larger than Winchesters. When it becomes a problem, it's a real problem that could/should have been avoided.


I think I would not have had gun problems if I were shooting my o/u. The breach face would have held the primer in place and I might not have ever known how loose they were since I was tossing the hulls.

I gave it a try for a one and done situation and I learned something and didn't really damage my gun. I hope me posting this helps someone else understand the risks of reloaded Fiocchi hulls and w209 primers in in a semi auto.

Only fiocchi primers in fiocchi hulls from now on.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
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Location: Soda Springs, Id.
or get you some Winchester universal hulls and load them to be launched.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
fiver wrote:
or get you some Winchester universal hulls and load them to be launched.

If I could find some low cost target shells I’d definitely take that route. But right now none are available anywhere, which is why I tried to reload the fiocchi’s.

I live in Los Angeles, so I can’t get universal’s at Walmart here. Six months ago I was able to find federal top guns or super targets for $7 a box.

Assuming ammo supply gets back to normal, I’ll load up on a few flats for the semi auto and stick to reloading my AA’s and gun clubs for use in the o/u that I shoot 98% of the time

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Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:17 pm 
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I find an over abundance of the cheap Federal once fired hulls fond at Wally World and other fine sporting goods stores ( :lol: ) at almost every range I shoot at here in Mormon Mecca. I would assume the same to be true just about everywhere. I load them one & done for use in my SA at SC ranges. I load 1 oz under Vectan powder and use the CB 12S0 wads. I have absolutely no problems with primers backing out. I've tried Fiocchi, Cheddite, Rio, and Challenger hulls, but none work to well; the cheap Federals always work just fine for one & done.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:52 am 
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If you you buy the Primer Pocket Tool from Precision Reloading, you can resize any primer pocket of any hull to hold any primer.....TIGHT.

There is no way that the Creative Solutions die can resize a primer pocket as well as the tool above will. The reason being is it takes more force to actually resize a shotshell primer pocket than you SHOULD apply to a MEC press.

The Creative Solutions die is cute, fancy and may solve a few problems that don't exist.

Actually resizing primer pockets isn't something it does well if, at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:34 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Primer Pocket Tool from Precision Reloading
Could you be a little more specific, like provide a link? There are 54 tools listed. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:38 pm 
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Of course.....here it is.


https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart ... =MM&i=1816

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2500
Location: Central NH
Mark,

Is there any substantial difference in the Precision, or BPI, tools?


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:57 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:

Ah so - I googled 'Primer Pocket Tool from Precision Reloading' and what I should have googled was 'Primer Pocket Correction Tool from Precision Reloading.' :wink: {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:25 pm 
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painter*,

I don't know what the differences are between the two primer pocket tools, if any.

As you would expect, I have the Precision version............ I was the one that made those originally.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:26 pm 
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Question for Mark. Comparison of force between "sharp rap with a hammer" and the crush (?) produced by my 9000H..... For sure there is a duration difference but what else comes into play? Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:30 am 
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llc,

With the primer pocket tool, there is a protrusion on the anvil (base) that extends into the primer pocket, which does not allow the hull to sit flat on the anvil. The punch has a shoulder on it that is only .425" in diameter, so all the force is centered over area of the primer pocket. The tool is made to swage the metal head and decrease the size of the primer pocket. It probably squashes the plastic basewad a bit also. The tool does not affect the primer seating depth, only the I.D. of the primer pocket. If you have ever used one you will see just how well it works when you try to insert a Federal primer in a RIO hull. It ain't goin' in unless you use the press. You don't need a 1 lb. ball peen hammer to make it work.

The Creative deprime punch, because of the flat base at the reprime station (shell lifter) will/may only push the plastic around a bit, as there is nothing to support the metal head in the area of the primer pocket. IF you could put enough force on it, you might actually change the depth of the primer. I doubt you could apply that much force, but with that large radius on the shell lifter it will not support a whole lot. Evidence of that is when you have a spent primer that is a bit rusty and you have to apply extra force to deprime......it sometimes pushes out the metal head around the primer pocket making it convex and rendering the hull useless.

In my narrow minded POV, the Creative punch is pretty and may 'fix' some hull problems. I don't believe it swages a primer pocket correctly.

I believe that you should have to exert a bit more force than thumb pressure to seat a primer. That's from a guy that shoots autoloaders and pumps most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:23 am 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
llc,

With the primer pocket tool, there is a protrusion on the anvil (base) that extends into the primer pocket, which does not allow the hull to sit flat on the anvil. The punch has a shoulder on it that is only .425" in diameter, so all the force is centered over area of the primer pocket. The tool is made to swage the metal head and decrease the size of the primer pocket. It probably squashes the plastic basewad a bit also. The tool does not affect the primer seating depth, only the I.D. of the primer pocket. If you have ever used one you will see just how well it works when you try to insert a Federal primer in a RIO hull. It ain't goin' in unless you use the press. You don't need a 1 lb. ball peen hammer to make it work.

The Creative deprime punch, because of the flat base at the reprime station (shell lifter) will/may only push the plastic around a bit, as there is nothing to support the metal head in the area of the primer pocket. IF you could put enough force on it, you might actually change the depth of the primer. I doubt you could apply that much force, but with that large radius on the shell lifter it will not support a whole lot. Evidence of that is when you have a spent primer that is a bit rusty and you have to apply extra force to deprime......it sometimes pushes out the metal head around the primer pocket making it convex and rendering the hull useless.

In my narrow minded POV, the Creative punch is pretty and may 'fix' some hull problems. I don't believe it swages a primer pocket correctly.

I believe that you should have to exert a bit more force than thumb pressure to seat a primer. That's from a guy that shoots autoloaders and pumps most of the time.

I made that test with the CRS tool and eventually pooched out the bottom of the hull without changing the size of the primer pocket hull. Yes it may distort the plastic, will the primer seal off?

N0

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 Post subject: Re: Fiocchi hulls + w209 primers = no good
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:06 pm 
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My reference to thumb pressure seating was before using the CRS tool......My experience has been that seating Win, Fed or CCI after a FIO has been used only required thumb pressure.... after using the tool thumb usually would not even start the primer....... by the way, I do agree it only changes the plastic portion of the pocket.
As soon as they are back in stock I will get one of the other to "check it out" There is just so much neat stuff to putz around with........ Larry




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